Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WOVKN-0006K8-1c for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:51:23 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.212.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.181; envelope-from=ricardojdfilipe@gmail.com; helo=mail-wi0-f181.google.com; Received: from mail-wi0-f181.google.com ([209.85.212.181]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WOVKL-00033z-DP for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:51:23 +0000 Received: by mail-wi0-f181.google.com with SMTP id bs8so2880362wib.2 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 09:51:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.72.239 with SMTP id g15mr7006489wiv.45.1394815874712; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 09:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.217.128.207 with HTTP; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 09:51:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <52852C2D.9020103@gmail.com> <52853D8A.6010501@monetize.io> <362072F0-1EA8-4474-AE26-4691C852A22C@bitsofproof.com> <532327DD.7030005@monetize.io> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:51:14 +0000 Message-ID: From: Ricardo Filipe Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (ricardojdfilipe[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.2 MISSING_HEADERS Missing To: header -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1WOVKL-00033z-DP Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:51:23 -0000 so much discussion for a visual update... make this a user experiment: -give the user the possibility to use BTC/mBTC/uMTC -retrieve the results after some time -make the default the most used option 2014-03-14 16:15 GMT+00:00 Alex Morcos : > I think Mark makes some good arguments. > I realize this would only add to the confusion, but... > What if we did relabel 100 satoshis to be some new kind of unit ("bit" or > whatever else), with a proper 3 letter code, and then from a user > standpoint, where people are using mBTC, they could switch to using Kbits > (ok thats obviously bad, but you get the idea) at the same nominal price. > But accounting backends and so forth would operate in the "bit" base unit > with 2 decimals of precision. > > > > > On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Mark Friedenbach wro= te: >> >> A cup of coffee in Tokyo costs about 55 yen. You see similar magnitude >> numbers in both Chinas, Thailand, and other economically important East >> Asian countries. Expect to pay hundreds of rupees in India, or thousands >> of rupees in Indonesia. >> >> This concept that money should have low, single digits for everyday >> prices is not just Western-centric, it's English-centric. An expresso in >> Rome would have cost you a few (tens of?) thousand lira in recent >> memory. It was pegging of the Euro to the U.S. dollar that brought >> European states in line with the English-speaking world (who themselves >> trace lineage to the pound sterling). >> >> No, there is no culturally-neutral common standards for currency and >> pricing. But there are ill-advised, ill-informed "standards" in >> accounting software that we nevertheless must live with. These software >> packages do not handle more than two decimal places gracefully. That >> gives technical justifications for moving to either uBTC or accounting >> in Satoshis directly. An argument for uBTC is that it retains alignment >> with the existing kBTC/BTC/mBTC/uBTC conventions. >> >> However another limitation of these accounting software practices is >> that they do not always handle SI notation very well, particularly >> sub-unit prefixes. By relabeling uBTC to be a new three-digit symbol >> (XBT, XBC, IBT, NBC, or whatever--I really don't care), we are now fully >> compliant with any software accounting package out there. >> >> We are still very, very early in the adoption period. These are changes >> that could be made now simply by a few big players and/or the bitcoin >> foundation changing their practice and their users following suit. >> >> On 03/14/2014 07:49 AM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: >> > How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency? >> > >> > At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what >> > people would expect. Certainly more familiar than =C2=B5BTC 3558 or BT= C >> > 0.003578. >> > >> > Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused. >> > >> > >> > On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: >> >> You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder >> >> why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you >> >> gave them are bad. >> >> >> >> I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a >> >> currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies >> >> do. >> >> >> >> 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits >> >> would be. >> >> >> >> >> >> Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof >> >> >> >> On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion >> >>> because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and >> >>> questions if exchange rates happen to differ by >10%. >> >>> >> >>> I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in >> >>> local currency that matters to the users. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: >> >>>> Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for >> >>>> =C2=B5BTC. >> >>>> >> >>>> I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched >> >>>> other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to >> >>>> mBTC. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: >> >>>>> The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. >> >>>>> It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread >> >>>>> now. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe >> >>>>> > wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive >> >>>>> presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple >> >>>>> configuration panel giving pretty much every possible >> >>>>> combination: icon, m+icon, =CE=BC+icon, BTC, mBTC, =CE=BCBTC, XB= T, >> >>>>> mXBT, =CE=BCXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing >> >>>>> symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to >> >>>>> customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit >> >>>>> symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving >> >>>>> icon+m etc). >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from >> >>>>> the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it >> >>>>> seems that =CE=BC+icon is more sensible. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Let us know what you'd like. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font >> >>>>> Awesome icon: >> >>>>> http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI >> >>>>> guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik > >>>>> > wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC >> >>>>> several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like >> >>>>> the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will >> >>>>> happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to >> >>>>> yet another decimal place transition. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell > >>>>> > wrote: >> >>>>>> We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do >> >>>>>> this, >> >>>>> let's do it right after the fee system is improved. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -wendell >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> grabhive.com | >> >>>>>> twitter.com/hivewallet >> >>>>> | gpg: 6C0C9411 >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer >> >>>>>>> systems >> >>>>> handle numbers to >> >>>>>>> the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). >> >>>>>>> The >> >>>>> opposite is >> >>>>>>> untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal >> >>>>>>> places). >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source >> >>>>> evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------ >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> >>>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph >> >>>>> databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed >> >>>>> leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. >> >>>>> Download your free book today! >> >>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> >>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> >>>>> >> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------- >> >>>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph >> >>>>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases >> >>>>> and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in >> >>>>> the field, this first edition is now available. Download your >> >>>>> free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> >>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> >>>>> >> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------- >> >>>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph >> >>>>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and >> >>>>> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the >> >>>>> field, this first edition is now available. Download your >> >>>>> free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> >>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------- >> >>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph >> >>>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and >> >>>> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the >> >>>> field, this first edition is now available. Download your free >> >>>> book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> >>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------- >> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph >> >>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and >> >>> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the >> >>> field, this first edition is now available. Download your free >> >>> book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- >> >> >> >> >> > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases >> >> and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the >> >> field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book >> >> today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development >> >> mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------- >> > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and >> > their >> > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, >> > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! >> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Bitcoin-development mailing list >> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and the= ir >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech >> _______________________________________________ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and thei= r > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >