Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 735A9C0001 for ; Sat, 8 May 2021 13:44:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55C6140132 for ; Sat, 8 May 2021 13:44:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.789 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.789 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (public key: not available)" header.d=ericmartindale.com Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3v5OnYMRxR4E for ; Sat, 8 May 2021 13:44:39 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail.verit.ae (mail.verit.ae [213.239.212.102]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D5F240003 for ; Sat, 8 May 2021 13:44:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from authenticated-user (mail.verit.ae [213.239.212.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.verit.ae (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EF7D5100B27 for ; Sat, 8 May 2021 15:44:35 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=ericmartindale.com; s=mail; t=1620481476; bh=8dK2t9L1+aoNZwQpmG26eqgqKD+E5UDztHDfetu24ac=; h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:From; b=XWZ0ZOkSAKnInebV6kMTHpxxlb9hUMlVzBYZZG6PIp8FVph5NIvk4CsQ3ff2kTYin C2JcWMhO5pFlkiMW4qBJrgPBSh8wFkCUW03NkNciwGVr8vXnyGT2tjTfwdy8qtWkHt vrDBJYms73eXeJ1x96agVEMCLQwblrkLsbAokW+RN5TxdSaOFgufyyDGgZX4J1sNg3 ETodkbQndEr8qEP+KVMvgR2UcLvSrNm5ZYcs+2f22NfyfbJ2fgQWIPhTvE2kqfsffY 8e3kLo/W4eiagbFqhRVi6aD49uzDD7QzUK3g32KVn0R3ED2bJ5cYuPhS42PLHkK5Y8 FqJCBVUmClzXQ== Received: from authenticated-user (mail.verit.ae [213.239.212.102]) for ; Sat, 08 May 2021 06:44:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533kAwbOS2Pz7c5UqRits97vixh/pb3els1bEOuYmB1VxnSjWwX6 V+8lltq0QIzb/RuqrHsQYF1bu8xiZr3bnIfrdDA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxYboRD2n0TMf1nBc5/JBDs+JkL1GCHq8D/QYm2a1Z3GlU7js37XFixWT1IUZrR8CPdvHdCleMnljwdqpJk/Gs= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:3111:: with SMTP id 17mr15398581ejx.403.1620481475460; Sat, 08 May 2021 06:44:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6do5xN2g5LPnFeM55iJ-4C4MyXOu_KeXxy68Xt4dJQMhi3LJ8ZrLICmEUlh8JGfDmsDG12m1JDAh0e0huwK_MlyKpdfn22ru3zsm7lYLfBo=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6do5xN2g5LPnFeM55iJ-4C4MyXOu_KeXxy68Xt4dJQMhi3LJ8ZrLICmEUlh8JGfDmsDG12m1JDAh0e0huwK_MlyKpdfn22ru3zsm7lYLfBo=@protonmail.com> From: Eric Martindale Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 09:44:24 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: SatoshiSingh , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b5c44805c1d1bef4" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 08 May 2021 13:46:10 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Opinion on proof of stake in future X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 May 2021 13:44:41 -0000 --000000000000b5c44805c1d1bef4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr. Singh, Proof of Stake is only resilient to =E2=85=93 of the network demonstrating = a Byzantine Fault, whilst Proof of Work is resilient up to the =C2=BD thresho= ld. You can explore prior research here: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf Independent of the security thresholds, Proof of Stake requires other trade-offs which are incompatible with Bitcoin's objective (to be a trustless digital cash) =E2=80=94 specifically the famous "security vs. liv= eness" guarantee. Digital cash is not useful if it must be globally halted to ensure its security, and Proof of Work squarely addresses this concern. Above and beyond any security consideration, Proof of Stake incentivizes the accumulation of wealth within a small set of actors, which is undesirable for the long-term health of any such network. If we are to free humanity from the tyranny of the State, we must do so by protecting the rights of every individual to hold and preserve their own value, without trusting any third party. Entrusting the health of the network to the "economic elite" is the paramount evil with respect to Bitcoin's objectives, nevermind that Proof of Work relies on energy expenditure to provide its security. Sincerely, Eric Martindale, relentless maker. Founder & CEO, Fabric, Inc. +1 (919) 374-2020 On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 6:50 PM SatoshiSingh via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Hello list, > > I am a lurker here and like many of you I worry about the energy usage of > bitcoin mining. I understand a lot mining happens with renewable resource= s > but the impact is still high. > > I want to get your opinion on implementing proof of stake for bitcoin > mining in future. For now, proof of stake is still untested and not battl= e > tested like proof of work. Though someday it will be. > > In the following years we'll be seeing proof of stake being implemented. > Smaller networks can test PoS which is a luxury bitcoin can't afford. > Here's how I see this the possibilities: > > 1 - Proof of stake isn't a good enough security mechanism > 2 - Proof of state is a good security mechanism and works as intended > > IF PoS turns out to be good after battle testing, would you consider > implementing it for Bitcoin? I understand this would invoke a lot of > controversies and a hard fork that no one likes. But its important enough > to consider a hard fork. What are your opinions provided PoS does work? > > Love from India. > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --000000000000b5c44805c1d1bef4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mr. Singh,

Proof of Stake is only resilient to=C2= =A0=E2=85=93 of the network demonstrating a Byzantine Fault, whilst Proof o= f Work is resilient up to the=C2=A0=C2=BD threshold.=C2=A0 You can explore = prior research here:=C2=A0https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pd= f

Independent of the security thresholds, Proof of Stake require= s other trade-offs which are incompatible with Bitcoin's objective (to = be a trustless digital cash) =E2=80=94 specifically the famous "securi= ty vs. liveness" guarantee.=C2=A0 Digital cash is not useful if it mus= t be globally halted to ensure its security, and Proof of Work squarely add= resses this concern.

Above and beyond any security consideration, Pr= oof of Stake incentivizes the accumulation of wealth within a small set of = actors, which is undesirable for the long-term health of any such network.= =C2=A0 If we are to free humanity from the tyranny of the State, we must do= so by protecting the rights of every individual to hold and preserve their= own value, without trusting any third party.=C2=A0 Entrusting the health o= f the network to the "economic elite" is the paramount evil with = respect to Bitcoin's objectives, nevermind that Proof of Work relies on= energy expenditure to provide its security.

Sincerely,

=
<= div>
Eric Martindale, relentless maker.
Founder & CEO, Fabric, Inc.
+1 (919) 374-2020


On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 6:50 PM SatoshiSingh via bitcoin-d= ev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
Hello list,

I am a lurker here and like many of you I worry about the energy usage of b= itcoin mining. I understand a lot mining happens with renewable resources b= ut the impact is still high.

I want to get your opinion on implementing proof of stake for bitcoin minin= g in future. For now, proof of stake is still untested and not battle teste= d like proof of work. Though someday it will be.

In the following years we'll be seeing proof of stake being implemented= . Smaller networks can test PoS which is a luxury bitcoin can't afford.= Here's how I see this the possibilities:

1 - Proof of stake isn't a good enough security mechanism
2 - Proof of state is a good security mechanism and works as intended

IF PoS turns out to be good after battle testing, would you consider implem= enting it for Bitcoin? I understand this would invoke a lot of controversie= s and a hard fork that no one likes. But its important enough to consider a= hard fork. What are your opinions provided PoS does work?

Love from India.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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