Delivery-date: Fri, 03 May 2024 17:04:22 -0700
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Date: Thu, 2 May 2024 00:10:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ali Sherief <ali@notatether.com>
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <52654980-c4f1-4d8e-a305-3a34c01b8599n@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <6a787f0d-db85-48fe-9e00-217ccd2a0f2f@mattcorallo.com>
References: <CADL_X_eXjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5Q2RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6a787f0d-db85-48fe-9e00-217ccd2a0f2f@mattcorallo.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] The Future of Bitcoin Testnet
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I think the effort required to remove testnet entirely would be too much to=
=20
work on. Replacing it with something else is a better idea to minimize=20
disruption.

In the mean time, we need to figure out a process to at least lock down the=
=20
testnet3 network so that no new blocks can be mined while the replacement=
=20
chain is commissioned. Is there a BIP with a procedure for replacing=20
testnet? How was it done last time?

-Ali

On Sunday, April 28, 2024 at 2:06:01=E2=80=AFPM UTC Matt Corallo wrote:

It has always been very clearly communicated that if testnet starts being=
=20
valued or traded it will=20
be reset. There's some legitimate debate over parameters in a reset here,=
=20
but in the mean time=20
testnet3 has ceased to serve its intended purpose as a valueless test=20
platform. Thus, it should at=20
minimum be removed.=20

On 3/31/24 9:19 AM, Jameson Lopp wrote:=20
> Hi all,=20
>=20
> I'd like to open a discussion about testnet3 to put out some feelers on=
=20
potential changes to it.=20
> First, a few facts:=20
>=20
> 1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 million=20
something and the block reward=20
> is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not doing a great job at=20
distributing testnet coins any more.=20
>=20
> 2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rather=20
amusing edge case bug that causes=20
> the difficulty to regularly get reset to 1, which causes a bit of havoc.=
=20
If you want a deep dive=20
> into the quirk:=20
https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/=20
> <https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/>=20
>=20
> 3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of us who=
=20
tend to be generous with our=20
> testnet coins are getting hounded by non-developers chasing cheap gains.=
=20
>=20
> 4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one could argue=
=20
that the fundamental=20
> principle of testnet coins having no value has been broken.=20
>=20
> This leads me to ponder the following questions, for which I'm soliciting=
=20
feedback.=20
>=20
> 1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has=20
been since the last reset and=20
> how many production systems will need to be updated, would a reset need=
=20
to be done with a great deal=20
> of notice?=20
>=20
> 2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It should be a=
=20
one liner fix, and I'd argue=20
> it could be done sooner rather than later, and orthogonal to the network=
=20
reset question. Would such=20
> a change, which would technically be a hard fork (but also arguably a=20
self resolving fork due to the=20
> difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it?=20
>=20
> 3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead deprecate=20
testnet in favor of signet?=20
>=20
> - Jameson=20
>=20
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
=20
"Bitcoin Development=20
> Mailing List" group.=20
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an=
=20
email to=20
> bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com <mailto:bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com>.=
=20
> To view this discussion on the web visit=20
>=20
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_eXjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5Q2=
RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mail.gmail.com=20
<
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_eXjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5Q2=
RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfoot=
er>.=20


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I think the effort required to remove testnet entirely would be too much to=
 work on. Replacing it with something else is a better idea to minimize dis=
ruption.<div><br /></div><div>In the mean time, we need to figure out a pro=
cess to at least lock down the testnet3 network so that no new blocks can b=
e mined while the replacement chain is commissioned. Is there a BIP with a =
procedure for replacing testnet? How was it done last time?</div><div><br /=
></div><div>-Ali<br /><br /><div><div dir=3D"auto">On Sunday, April 28, 202=
4 at 2:06:01=E2=80=AFPM UTC Matt Corallo wrote:<br /></div><blockquote styl=
e=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding-left: 1ex;">It has always been very clearly communicated that if te=
stnet starts being valued or traded it will=20
<br />be reset. There's some legitimate debate over parameters in a reset h=
ere, but in the mean time=20
<br />testnet3 has ceased to serve its intended purpose as a valueless test=
 platform. Thus, it should at=20
<br />minimum be removed.
<br />
<br />On 3/31/24 9:19 AM, Jameson Lopp wrote:
<br />&gt; Hi all,
<br />&gt;=20
<br />&gt; I'd like to open a discussion about testnet3 to put out some fee=
lers on potential changes to it.=20
<br />&gt; First, a few facts:
<br />&gt;=20
<br />&gt; 1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 mil=
lion something and the block reward=20
<br />&gt; is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not doing a great job at di=
stributing testnet coins any more.
<br />&gt;=20
<br />&gt; 2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rath=
er amusing edge case bug that causes=20
<br />&gt; the difficulty to regularly get reset to 1, which causes a bit o=
f havoc. If you want a deep dive=20
<br />&gt; into the quirk: <a href=3D"https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storm=
s-of-bitcoins-testnet/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow">https://blog.lop=
p.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/</a>=20
<br />&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoin=
s-testnet/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow">https://blog.lopp.net/the-bl=
ock-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/</a>&gt;
<br />&gt;=20
<br />&gt; 3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of=
 us who tend to be generous with our=20
<br />&gt; testnet coins are getting hounded by non-developers chasing chea=
p gains.
<br />&gt;=20
<br />&gt; 4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one coul=
d argue that the fundamental=20
<br />&gt; principle of testnet=C2=A0coins having no value has been broken.
<br />&gt;=20
<br />&gt; This leads me to ponder the following questions, for which I'm s=
oliciting feedback.
<br />&gt;=20
<br />&gt; 1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long =
it has been since the last reset and=20
<br />&gt; how many production systems will need to be updated, would a res=
et need to be done with a great deal=20
<br />&gt; of notice?
<br />&gt;=20
<br />&gt; 2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It shou=
ld be a one liner fix, and I'd argue=20
<br />&gt; it could be done sooner rather than later, and orthogonal to the=
 network reset question. Would such=20
<br />&gt; a change, which would technically be a hard fork (but also argua=
bly a self resolving fork due to the=20
<br />&gt; difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it?
<br />&gt;=20
<br />&gt; 3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead dep=
recate testnet in favor of signet?
<br />&gt;=20
<br />&gt; - Jameson
<br />&gt;=20
<br />&gt; --=20
<br />&gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goog=
le Groups "Bitcoin Development=20
<br />&gt; Mailing List" group.
<br />&gt; To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it=
, send an email to=20
<br />&gt; <a href=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow">bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow">bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com<=
/a>&gt;.
<br />&gt; To view this discussion on the web visit=20
<br />&gt; <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_e=
XjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5Q2RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mail.gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank" rel=3D"nofollow">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_e=
XjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5Q2RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mail.gmail.com</a> &lt;<a hre=
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Vy5Q2RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_sour=
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l.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dfooter</a>&gt;.
<br /></blockquote></div></div>

<p></p>

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