Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of bitpay.com
	designates 209.85.218.50 as permitted sender)
	client-ip=209.85.218.50; envelope-from=jgarzik@bitpay.com;
	helo=mail-oi0-f50.google.com; 
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CALxyHsVKUJtskOtnqS4_R0U=vwLhVzC+0i6Ya0QyT8T644dYHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20150619103959.GA32315@savin.petertodd.org>
	<20150619154054.GA13498@savin.petertodd.org>
	<CAMK47c84w=2c9y8MKHTzFf05DmKXz74a=iFViA-oZ1uRDZCAWg@mail.gmail.com>
	<6716121.uS5ifrNBZv@crushinator>
	<CALxyHsVKUJtskOtnqS4_R0U=vwLhVzC+0i6Ya0QyT8T644dYHA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 14:15:21 -0700
Message-ID: <CAJHLa0NAwCodhWvbFCtejVZiwiUsC5BKd7iZzAggqYgH-CxZTA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Frank Flores <frankf44@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1134fa14311ad90518e56d6c
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
Precedence: list

--001a1134fa14311ad90518e56d6c
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Double spend detection is by definition best-effort.

The purpose of bitcoin is to provide security (confirmations) to otherwise
insecure, possibly double spent transactions.




On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Frank Flores <frankf44@gmail.com> wrote:

> Has anyone from Mycelium weighed in on this? Is their doublespend attack
> detection broken with this kind of irresponsible behavior?
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 3:39 PM, Matt Whitlock <bip@mattwhitlock.name>
> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, 19 June 2015, at 9:18 am, Adrian Macneil wrote:
>> > If full-RBF sees any significant adoption by miners, then it will
>> actively
>> > harm bitcoin adoption by reducing or removing the ability for online or
>> POS
>> > merchants to accept bitcoin payments at all.
>>
>> Retail POS merchants probably should not be accepting vanilla Bitcoin
>> payments, as Bitcoin alone does not (and cannot) guarantee the
>> irreversibility of a transaction until it has been buried several blocks
>> deep in the chain. Retail merchants should be requiring a co-signature from
>> a mutually trusted co-signer that vows never to sign a double-spend. The
>> reason we don't yet see such technology permeating the ecosystem is
>> because, to date, zero-conf transactions have been irreversible "enough,"
>> but this has only been a happy accident; it was never promised, and it
>> should not be relied upon.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *MONEY IS OVER!*
>                                 IF YOU WANT IT
> <http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/>
> =====================================================
> The causes of my servitude can be traced to the tyranny of money.
> -Serj Tankian
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>


-- 
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/

--001a1134fa14311ad90518e56d6c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Double spend detection is by definition best-effort.<div><=
br></div><div>The purpose of bitcoin is to provide security (confirmations)=
 to otherwise insecure, possibly double spent transactions.</div><div><br><=
/div><div><br><div><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Frank Flores <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:frankf44@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">fr=
ankf44@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr">Has anyone from Mycelium weighed in on this? Is their double=
spend attack detection broken with this kind of irresponsible behavior?</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div><div class=3D"h5"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 3:39 PM, Matt Whitlock <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:bip@mattwhitlock.name" target=3D"_blank">bip@mattwhitlo=
ck.name</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Friday, =
19 June 2015, at 9:18 am, Adrian Macneil wrote:<br>
&gt; If full-RBF sees any significant adoption by miners, then it will acti=
vely<br>
&gt; harm bitcoin adoption by reducing or removing the ability for online o=
r POS<br>
&gt; merchants to accept bitcoin payments at all.<br>
<br>
Retail POS merchants probably should not be accepting vanilla Bitcoin payme=
nts, as Bitcoin alone does not (and cannot) guarantee the irreversibility o=
f a transaction until it has been buried several blocks deep in the chain. =
Retail merchants should be requiring a co-signature from a mutually trusted=
 co-signer that vows never to sign a double-spend. The reason we don&#39;t =
yet see such technology permeating the ecosystem is because, to date, zero-=
conf transactions have been irreversible &quot;enough,&quot; but this has o=
nly been a happy accident; it was never promised, and it should not be reli=
ed upon.<br>
<div><div><br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/=
listinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div></div><=
/div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">-- <br><div><div style=
=3D"text-align:left"><b><span style=3D"font-size:xx-large">MONEY IS OVER!</=
span></b></div><div><div style=3D"text-align:left"><span style=3D"font-size=
:x-small">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.z=
eitgeistmovie.com/" target=3D"_blank">IF YOU WANT IT</a></span></div>=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D<br>The causes of my servitude can be traced to the tyranny of money.<br=
>-Serj Tankian</div></div>
</font></span></div>
<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/=
listinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_signature">Jeff Garzik<br>Bitcoin core developer and open sourc=
e evangelist<br>BitPay, Inc. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://bitpay.=
com/" target=3D"_blank">https://bitpay.com/</a></div>
</div>

--001a1134fa14311ad90518e56d6c--