Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 492079BA for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 05:20:00 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from homiemail-a62.g.dreamhost.com (homie.mail.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.208]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DF10A8 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 05:19:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from homiemail-a62.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a62.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C48C634073; Mon, 9 Oct 2017 22:19:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=taoeffect.com; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; s=taoeffect.com; bh=8bf9Glo40/7Den+mb /Lpj+Xuzo8=; b=J/4I9RxQQZhIukhmrT39sA9NuTpp4b0wjbz81J60B3o2jzqyF p87WVXciSikXvZV8z13270arbTPtoeme134M3jG4f6lTwzlEEbgdbcdeeDnMNRkl FE8iMDNCSdqy63fNF934FT3Q4+r9t9pWAWGm15XJ2L/Id58LjEy29eEUqs= Received: from [192.168.254.46] (unknown [47.156.153.15]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: contact@taoeffect.com) by homiemail-a62.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E4F6363406F; Mon, 9 Oct 2017 22:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C45F5509-EEC6-496E-ADD0-4087642D4830"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Tao Effect In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2017 22:19:58 -0700 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 529305598.317926-0be337378206dd25d251f421978c33dd Message-Id: <55CAABF4-4FB8-4230-8E51-014C1D347D72@taoeffect.com> References: <16D7672F-AA36-47D7-AAEF-E767B9CE09FF@taoeffect.com> To: Paul Sztorc X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=disabled version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 11:37:48 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized sharding protocol for decentralized scaling without Miners owning our BTC X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 05:20:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C45F5509-EEC6-496E-ADD0-4087642D4830 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5CC46E5A-CDBA-4B5D-9966-A07FE1930A71" --Apple-Mail=_5CC46E5A-CDBA-4B5D-9966-A07FE1930A71 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Paul, It's a two-way peg. There's nothing preventing transfers back to the main chain. They work in the exact same manner. Cheers, Greg -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also = sharing with the NSA. > On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Paul Sztorc > wrote: >=20 > That is only a one-way peg, not a two-way. >=20 > In fact, that is exactly what drivechain does, if one chooses = parameters for the drivechain that make it impossible for any = side-to-main transfer to succeed. >=20 > One-way pegs have strong first-mover disadvantages. >=20 > Paul >=20 > On Oct 9, 2017 9:24 PM, "Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev" = > wrote: > Dear list, >=20 > In previous arguments over Drivechain (and Drivechain-like proposals) = I promised that better scaling proposals =E2=80=94 that do not sacrifice = Bitcoin's security =E2=80=94 would come along. >=20 > I planned to do a detailed writeup, but have decided to just send off = this email with what I have, because I'm unlikely to have time to write = up a detailed proposal. >=20 > The idea is very simple (and by no means novel*), and I'm sure others = have mentioned either exactly it, or similar ideas (e.g. burning coins) = before. >=20 > This is a generic sharding protocol for all blockchains, including = Bitcoin. >=20 > Users simply say: "My coins on Chain A are going to be sent to Chain = B". >=20 > Then they burn the coins on Chain A, and create a minting transaction = on Chain B. The details of how to ensure that coins do not get lost = needs to be worked out, but I'm fairly certain the folks on this list = can figure out those details. >=20 > - Thin clients, nodes, and miners, can all very easily verify that = said action took place, and therefore accept the "newly minted" coins on = B as valid. > - Users client software now also knows where to look for the other = coins (if for some reason it needs to). >=20 > This doesn't even need much modification to the Bitcoin protocol as = most of the verification is done client-side. >=20 > It is fully decentralized, and there's no need to give our ownership = of our coins to miners to get scale. >=20 > My sincere apologies if this has been brought up before (in which = case, I would be very grateful for a link to the proposal). >=20 > Cheers, > Greg Slepak >=20 > * This idea is similar in spirit to Interledger. >=20 > -- > Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also = sharing with the NSA. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org = > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev = >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_5CC46E5A-CDBA-4B5D-9966-A07FE1930A71 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Paul,

It's = a two-way peg.

There's nothing preventing transfers back to the main = chain.

They = work in the exact same manner.

Cheers,
Greg

--
Please do not email me anything that you are not = comfortable also sharing with the NSA.

On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com>= wrote:

That is only a one-way peg, not = a two-way.

In fact, that is exactly what drivechain does, = if one chooses parameters for the drivechain that make it impossible for = any side-to-main transfer to succeed.

One-way = pegs have strong first-mover disadvantages.

Paul

On Oct 9, 2017 9:24 PM, "Tao Effect via = bitcoin-dev" <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
Dear list,

In previous arguments = over Drivechain (and Drivechain-like proposals) I promised that better = scaling proposals =E2=80=94 that do not sacrifice Bitcoin's security =E2=80= =94 would come along.

I planned to do a detailed writeup, but have decided to just = send off this email with what I have, because I'm unlikely to have time = to write up a detailed proposal.

The idea is very simple (and by no = means novel*), and I'm sure others have mentioned either exactly it, or = similar ideas (e.g. burning coins) before.

This is a generic sharding protocol for = all blockchains, including Bitcoin.

Users simply say: "My coins on Chain A = are going to be sent to Chain B".

Then they burn the coins on Chain A, = and create a minting transaction on Chain B. The details of how to = ensure that coins do not get lost needs to be worked out, but I'm fairly = certain the folks on this list can figure out those details.

- Thin clients, nodes, = and miners, can all very easily verify that said action took place, and = therefore accept the "newly minted" coins on B as valid.
- Users client software now also knows where to look for the = other coins (if for some reason it needs to).

This doesn't even need much = modification to the Bitcoin protocol as most of the verification is done = client-side.

It = is fully decentralized, and there's no need to give our ownership of our = coins to miners to get scale.

My sincere apologies if this has been = brought up before (in which case, I would be very grateful for a link to = the proposal).

Cheers,
Greg Slepak

* This idea is similar = in spirit to Interledger.

--
Please = do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also = sharing with the NSA.


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