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Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:10:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo.com>
To: "bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net"
	<bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
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Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] [BIP 15] Aliases
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Reply-To: Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo.com>

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I think IBANs are not such a good idea. Note that as someone who has spent =
the last year of my life dealing with hundreds of bank transactions a day a=
nd interacting with the banking system (both on a technical, systematic and=
 personnel level), the entire system is a gigantic mess.=0A=0AThe banks are=
 in fact looking to us for answers. That's why we (Bitcoin Consultancy) wer=
e invited to the SWIFT conference to join their panel on bank 2.0.=0A=0AI d=
on't even mind the maxim "take everything the banks have done and do the co=
mplete opposite" :)=0A=0AI invite anyone who is skeptical to read the ECB's=
 specification on SEPA payments. It really is an example of a system made t=
o work alongside legacy systems that rely on inefficient people. The interc=
hange fees are dependent on a totally arbitrary test of merchant indifferen=
ce and various antitrust regulations.=0A=0AThese systems are usually built =
not by engineers or hackers, but by finance people. IBAN has no place in bi=
tcoin IMO.=0A=0AI don't mean to sound too critical, but I'm skeptical of it=
s usefulness. Especially when we already have bitcoin addresses with their =
own checksums- what value do IBANs add? Nothing except negatives.=0A=0A=0A=
=0A________________________________=0A From: slush <slush@centrum.cz>=0ATo:=
 Khalahan <khal@dot-bit.org> =0ACc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.n=
et =0ASent: Friday, December 16, 2011 7:54 PM=0ASubject: Re: [Bitcoin-devel=
opment] [BIP 15] Aliases=0A =0A=0AKhalahan, honestly, using namecoin for al=
iases is (for me) clean example of over-engineering. I mean - it will defin=
itely work if implemented properly. I played with a namecoin a bit (as my p=
ool was the first 'big' pool supporting merged mining), but I think there's=
 really long way to provide such alias system in namecoin and *cleanly inte=
grate it with bitcoin*. Don't forget that people who want to do lookup need=
 to maintain also namecoin blockchain with their bitcoin client. It goes ag=
ainst my instinct of keeping stuff easy.=0A=0AFor example, yesterday I impl=
emented HTTPS lookup for addresses into my fork of Electrum client. I did i=
t in 15 minutes, it works as expected, it does the job and the implementati=
on is really transparent, becuase implementation is 20 lines of code. There=
's no magic transformation, no forced "?handle=3D" parameters or whatever. =
And I don't care if somebody provide URL https://some.strange.domain/name-o=
f-my-dog?myhandle=3D5678iop&anything_else=3DTrue=0A=0AAnd everybody can do =
the same in their clients, in their merchant solutions, websites or whateve=
r. Everybody can do HTTPS lookup. But try to explain DNS, Namecoin, IIBAN, =
email aliases to other programmers...=0A=0A=0AThose IIBAN - well, why not. =
At least I see the potential in PR. So far I understand it as some teoretic=
 concept which is not supported by anything else right now. Give it few yea=
rs until it matures and then add IIBAN alias to Bitcoin client too.=0A=0AMa=
ybe I'm repeating myself already, but the way to go is to make aliases as e=
asy as possible, so everybody can implement it in their own solution and th=
us practially remove the need of using standard bitcoin addresses for norma=
l users. Using some superior technology, which is hard to implement or even=
 understand won't solve the situation, because it will ends up with some re=
ference implementation in standard client only and nobody else will use it.=
=0A=0Aslush=0A=0A=0AOn Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Khalahan <khal@dot-bit=
.org> wrote:=0A=0A =0A>Namecoin is a peer-to-peer generic name/value datast=
ore system.=0A>Don't forget it's not limited to .bit usage ! So, directly m=
apping=0A    things to .bit url would not be the optimal way of using namec=
oin.=0A>=0A>=0A------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------=0ALearn Windows Azure Live!=A0 Tuesday, Dec 13, 2011=0AM=
icrosoft is holding a special Learn Windows Azure training event for =0Adev=
elopers. It will provide a great way to learn Windows Azure and what it =0A=
provides. You can attend the event by watching it streamed LIVE online.=A0 =
=0ALearn more at http://p.sf.net/sfu/ms-windowsazure=0A____________________=
___________________________=0ABitcoin-development mailing list=0ABitcoin-de=
velopment@lists.sourceforge.net=0Ahttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listi=
nfo/bitcoin-development
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>I think IB=
ANs are not such a good idea. Note that as someone who has spent the last y=
ear of my life dealing with hundreds of bank transactions a day and interac=
ting with the banking system (both on a technical, systematic and personnel=
 level), the entire system is a gigantic mess.</span></div><div><br><span><=
/span></div><div><span>The banks are in fact looking to us for answers. Tha=
t's why we (Bitcoin Consultancy) were invited to the SWIFT conference to jo=
in their panel on bank 2.0.</span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><s=
pan>I don't even mind the maxim "take everything the banks have done and do=
 the complete opposite" :)</span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><sp=
an>I invite anyone who is skeptical to read the ECB's specification on SEPA=
 payments. It really is an example of a system made to work alongside
 legacy systems that rely on inefficient people. The interchange fees are d=
ependent on a totally arbitrary test of merchant indifference and various a=
ntitrust regulations.</span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>Th=
ese systems are usually built not by engineers or hackers, but by finance p=
eople. IBAN has no place in bitcoin IMO.</span></div><div><br><span></span>=
</div><div><span>I don't mean to sound too critical, but I'm skeptical of i=
ts usefulness. Especially when we already have bitcoin addresses with their=
 own checksums- what value do IBANs add? Nothing except negatives.<br></spa=
n></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new yo=
rk, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new r=
oman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <font face=3D"Arial" size=
=3D"2"> <hr size=3D"1">  <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span><=
/b> slush &lt;slush@centrum.cz&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:
 bold;">To:</span></b> Khalahan &lt;khal@dot-bit.org&gt; <br><b><span style=
=3D"font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforg=
e.net <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, D=
ecember 16, 2011 7:54 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:=
</span></b> Re: [Bitcoin-development] [BIP 15] Aliases<br> </font> <br>=0A<=
meta http-equiv=3D"x-dns-prefetch-control" content=3D"off"><div id=3D"yiv12=
26468051">Khalahan, honestly, using namecoin for aliases is (for me) clean =
example of over-engineering. I mean - it will definitely work if implemente=
d properly. I played with a namecoin a bit (as my pool was the first 'big' =
pool supporting merged mining), but I think there's really long way to prov=
ide such alias system in namecoin and *cleanly integrate it with bitcoin*. =
Don't forget that people who want to do lookup need to maintain also nameco=
in blockchain with their bitcoin client. It goes against my instinct of kee=
ping stuff easy.<div>=0A=0A<br></div><div>For example, yesterday I implemen=
ted HTTPS lookup for addresses into my fork of Electrum client. I did it in=
 15 minutes, it works as expected, it does the job and the implementation i=
s really transparent, becuase implementation is 20 lines of code. There's n=
o magic transformation, no forced "?handle=3D" parameters or whatever. And =
I don't care if somebody provide URL <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" =
href=3D"https://some.strange.domain/name-of-my-dog?myhandle=3D5678iop&amp;a=
nything_else=3DTrue">https://some.strange.domain/name-of-my-dog?myhandle=3D=
5678iop&amp;anything_else=3DTrue</a></div>=0A=0A<div><br></div><div>And eve=
rybody can do the same in their clients, in their merchant solutions, websi=
tes or whatever. Everybody can do HTTPS lookup. But try to explain DNS, Nam=
ecoin, IIBAN, email aliases to other programmers...<br>=0A=0A<div><br></div=
><div>Those IIBAN - well, why not. At least I see the potential in PR. So f=
ar I understand it as some teoretic concept which is not supported by anyth=
ing else right now. Give it few years until it matures and then add IIBAN a=
lias to Bitcoin client too.</div>=0A=0A<div><br></div><div>Maybe I'm repeat=
ing myself already, but the way to go is to make aliases as easy as possibl=
e, so everybody can implement it in their own solution and thus practially =
remove the need of using standard bitcoin addresses for normal users. Using=
 some superior technology, which is hard to implement or even understand wo=
n't solve the situation, because it will ends up with some reference implem=
entation in standard client only and nobody else will use it.</div>=0A=0A<d=
iv><br></div><div>slush<br><br><div class=3D"yiv1226468051gmail_quote">On F=
ri, Dec 16, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Khalahan <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofol=
low" ymailto=3D"mailto:khal@dot-bit.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:k=
hal@dot-bit.org">khal@dot-bit.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote clas=
s=3D"yiv1226468051gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">=0A=0A<u></u>=0A=0A  =0A    =0A  =0A  <div><di=
v><div class=3D"yiv1226468051h5">=0A    Namecoin is a peer-to-peer generic =
name/value datastore system.<br>=0A    Don't forget it's not limited to .bi=
t usage ! So, directly mapping=0A    things to .bit url would not be the op=
timal way of using namecoin.<br><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div></=
div></div>=0A</div><meta http-equiv=3D"x-dns-prefetch-control" content=3D"o=
n"><br>--------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------<br>Learn Windows Azure Live!&nbsp; Tuesday, Dec 13, 2011<br>Micr=
osoft is holding a special Learn Windows Azure training event for <br>devel=
opers. It will provide a great way to learn Windows Azure and what it <br>p=
rovides. You can attend the event by watching it streamed LIVE online.&nbsp=
; <br>Learn more at <a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/ms-windowsazure" target=
=3D"_blank">http://p.sf.net/sfu/ms-windowsazure</a><br>____________________=
___________________________<br>Bitcoin-development mailing list<br><a ymail=
to=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" href=3D"mailto:Bitc=
oin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforg=
e.net</a><br><a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoi=
n-development"
 target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-dev=
elopment</a><br><br><br> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>
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