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From: CryptAxe <cryptaxe@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 17:00:03 -0700
Message-ID: <CAF5CFkhY0rYP6yb66jr0MyKBOuTXuQ+Kasz0kJ_NM985YR-wPA@mail.gmail.com>
To: willtech@live.com.au, 
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009d61520576baf1ec"
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [bitcoin-discuss] Proposal to replace full
 blockchain with recent history plus UTXO Set
Precedence: list

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Feel free to take a look at my implementation of UTXO loading (for core
~0.16.99) here:
https://github.com/DriveNetTESTDRIVE/DriveNet/commit/60189ea9a23865180e25207ecf66f95d84f642c6


Note that this has consensus implications, and that there are bugs (some of
which are fixed in later commits to that repository)


On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 4:56 PM Damian Williamson via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> A fairly decent rework would be needed but it seems that the idea has
> merit initially.
>
>
> As it is now, it is not only that a utxo exists but, that the transaction
> it references and the block it is within can also be fully validated.
>
>
> So, if a utxo block set type existed then by consensus every so often a
> bunch of blocks containing just the validated utxo set to a given height,
> say 100,000 blocks below the current blockheight, and necessary header data
> could be appended onto the valid chain and nodes would be free to drop all
> preceding blocks. I suspect that many wouldn't and that even many new nodes
> would still desire to download the full blockchain but, for the use case
> you mention it would make sense.
>
>
> If done [right/wrong] it may even make Satoshi's fortune spendable.
> Something to watch out for.
> ------------------------------
> *From:* bitcoin-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org <
> bitcoin-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org> on behalf of Dave
> Scotese via bitcoin-discuss <bitcoin-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 26 September 2018 1:46:54 AM
> *To:* Bitcoin Discuss
> *Subject:* Re: [bitcoin-discuss] Proposal to replace full blockchain with
> recent history plus UTXO Set
>
> The image at imgur and the pastebin both reference block 542324 but the
> correct block is 542322.  As the pastebin shows, the decimal and hex
> representations I gave for the block height did not match, and this is
> why.  If you use the Merkle root for block 542322 instead of 542324, you'll
> be able to see the correct Game of Life play out and make the apron image.
>
> Dave.
>
> On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 11:38 AM Dave Scotese <dscotese@litmocracy.com>
> wrote:
>
> I thought I didn't have access to the dev list and so intended to post the
> following proposal to this discussion list, but used the wrong email
> address.  Anyway, my email did get into the dev list (
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2018-September/016420.html)
> but I'll repeat it here:
>
> I've been working on an idea that relieves full nodes of storing the
> entire blockchain. Open source software generally relies on the fact that
> "enough" people agree that it's secure. Bitcoin software works that way
> too. So if you understand enough to see that a UTXO set is valid at a
> certain block height, and there are enough other people who agree and that
> set is recognizable by humans, then we can use that UTXO set and ditch the
> blockchain that existed up to that point. It would save a lot of storage
> and make it a lot easier to run a full node.
>
> Have you reviewed the source code from which your wallets were compiled?
> At some point, we all trust third parties, but generally (at least among
> people who understand Bitcoin) they are large composite groups so that no
> small group or individual can profit from cheating.
>
> I look forward to answering any concerns and also to any offers of help.
> I used block 542324 of the Bitcoin blockchain to make a memorable
> experience using the game of life. I wrote a script for the open-source
> Game-of-Life software Golly and shared it in the paste at
> https://pastebin.com/k5Ssc0qk. It produces the image at
> https://imgur.com/a/rwIQuVz. If someone can tell me how to get a UTXO Set
> from the bitcoin client, I'll send them $50 of bitcoin. Then I could get
> the SHA256 hash of that set and try to make a recognizable checkpoint for
> the Bitcoin blockchain. If someone runs Golly and shares a video of the
> game playing out (into the apron-shaped image), I'll send them $50 of
> bitcoin too.
>
> In a few decades when the blockchain has grown to a few terabytes and the
> UTXO Set is still just a few gigabytes, I'd like to see more people start
> running full nodes without the hassle of a long wait and loads of storage
> space. That's what stops me from running one.
>
>
>
> --
> I like to provide some work at no charge to prove my value. Do you need a
> techie?
> I own Litmocracy <http://www.litmocracy.com> and Meme Racing
> <http://www.memeracing.net> (in alpha).
> I'm the webmaster for The Voluntaryist <http://www.voluntaryist.com>
> which now accepts Bitcoin.
> I also code for The Dollar Vigilante <http://dollarvigilante.com/>.
> "He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules" - Satoshi
> Nakamoto
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Feel free to take a look at my imple=
mentation of UTXO loading (for core ~0.16.99) here:</div><div><a href=3D"ht=
tps://github.com/DriveNetTESTDRIVE/DriveNet/commit/60189ea9a23865180e25207e=
cf66f95d84f642c6">https://github.com/DriveNetTESTDRIVE/DriveNet/commit/6018=
9ea9a23865180e25207ecf66f95d84f642c6</a></div><div><br></div><div><br></div=
><div>Note that this has consensus implications, and that there are bugs (s=
ome of which are fixed in later commits to that repository)</div><div><br><=
/div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Se=
p 25, 2018 at 4:56 PM Damian Williamson via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation=
.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">




<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div id=3D"m_-619780837676204327divtagdefaultwrapper" style=3D"font-size:12=
pt;color:#000000;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif" dir=3D"ltr">
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">A fairly decent rework would be n=
eeded but it seems that the idea has merit initially.</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">As it is now, it is not only that=
 a utxo exists but, that the transaction it references and the block it is =
within can also be fully validated.</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">So, if a utxo block set type exis=
ted then by consensus every so often a bunch of blocks containing just the =
validated utxo set to a given height, say 100,000 blocks below the current =
blockheight, and necessary header
 data could be appended onto the valid chain and nodes would be free to dro=
p all preceding blocks. I suspect that many wouldn&#39;t and that even many=
 new nodes would still desire to download the full blockchain but, for the =
use case you mention it would make sense.</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">If done [right/wrong] it may even=
 make Satoshi&#39;s fortune spendable. Something to watch out for.<br>
</p>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"m_-619780837676204327divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Ca=
libri, sans-serif" style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> =
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=
=3D"_blank">bitcoin-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a> &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:bitcoin-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_=
blank">bitcoin-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; on behalf =
of Dave Scotese via bitcoin-discuss
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D=
"_blank">bitcoin-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 26 September 2018 1:46:54 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bitcoin Discuss<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [bitcoin-discuss] Proposal to replace full blockchain w=
ith recent history plus UTXO Set</font>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div>

<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>The image at imgur and the pastebin both reference block 542324 but th=
e correct block is 542322.=C2=A0 As the pastebin shows, the decimal and hex=
 representations I gave for the block height did not match, and this is why=
.=C2=A0 If you use the Merkle root for block
 542322 instead of 542324, you&#39;ll be able to see the correct Game of Li=
fe play out and make the apron image.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dave.<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"m_-619780837676204327x_gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 11:38 AM Dave Scotese &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:dscotese@litmocracy.com" target=3D"_blank">dscotese@litmocracy.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"m_-619780837676204327x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">I thought I didn&#39;t have access to the dev list and so =
intended to post the following proposal to this discussion list, but used t=
he wrong email address.=C2=A0 Anyway, my email did get into the dev list (<=
a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2018-Sept=
ember/016420.html" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipe=
rmail/bitcoin-dev/2018-September/016420.html</a>)
 but I&#39;ll repeat it here:</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;ve been working on an idea that relieves full nodes =
of storing the entire blockchain. Open source software generally relies on =
the fact that &quot;enough&quot; people agree that it&#39;s secure. Bitcoin=
 software works that way too. So if you understand enough
 to see that a UTXO set is valid at a certain block height, and there are e=
nough other people who agree and that set is recognizable by humans, then w=
e can use that UTXO set and ditch the blockchain that existed up to that po=
int. It would save a lot of storage
 and make it a lot easier to run a full node.<br>
<br>
Have you reviewed the source code from which your wallets were compiled? At=
 some point, we all trust third parties, but generally (at least among peop=
le who understand Bitcoin) they are large composite groups so that no small=
 group or individual can profit
 from cheating.<br>
<br>
I look forward to answering any concerns and also to any offers of help.=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 I used block 542324 of the Bitcoin blockchain to make a memorable=
 experience using the game of life. I wrote a script for the open-source Ga=
me-of-Life software Golly and shared it in
 the paste at <a href=3D"https://pastebin.com/k5Ssc0qk" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://pastebin.com/k5Ssc0qk</a>. It produces the image at
<a href=3D"https://imgur.com/a/rwIQuVz" target=3D"_blank">https://imgur.com=
/a/rwIQuVz</a>. If someone can tell me how to get a UTXO Set from the bitco=
in client, I&#39;ll send them $50 of bitcoin. Then I could get the SHA256 h=
ash of that set and try to make a recognizable
 checkpoint for the Bitcoin blockchain. If someone runs Golly and shares a =
video of the game playing out (into the apron-shaped image), I&#39;ll send =
them $50 of bitcoin too.<br>
<br>
In a few decades when the blockchain has grown to a few terabytes and the U=
TXO Set is still just a few gigabytes, I&#39;d like to see more people star=
t running full nodes without the hassle of a long wait and loads of storage=
 space. That&#39;s what stops me from running
 one.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear=3D"all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"m_-619780837676204327x_gmail_signature">
<div dir=3D"ltr">I like to provide some work at no charge to prove my value=
. Do you need a techie?=C2=A0
<br>
I own <a href=3D"http://www.litmocracy.com" target=3D"_blank">Litmocracy</a=
> and <a href=3D"http://www.memeracing.net" target=3D"_blank">
Meme Racing</a> (in alpha). <br>
I&#39;m the webmaster for <a href=3D"http://www.voluntaryist.com" target=3D=
"_blank">The Voluntaryist</a> which now accepts Bitcoin.<br>
I also code for <a href=3D"http://dollarvigilante.com/" target=3D"_blank">T=
he Dollar Vigilante</a>.<br>
&quot;He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules&quot; - Sato=
shi Nakamoto</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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