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From: Peter Vessenes <peter@coinlab.com>
Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 08:08:59 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMGNxUsGRyYWepSn4on+V9CJAj0J8oSXndo36OrrCyMhvKnoxA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Adam Back <adam@cypherspace.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6d868eafd0af04dd139949
Cc: Bitcoin-Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] is there a way to do bitcoin-staging?
Precedence: list

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I think this is a very interesting idea. As Bitcoiners, we often stuff
things into the 'alt chain' bucket in our heads; I wonder if this idea
works better as a curing period, essentially an extended version of the
current 100 block wait for mined coins.

An alternate setup comes to mind; I can imagine this working as a sort of
gift economy; people pay real BTC for merge-mined "beta BTC" as a way to
support development. There is no doubt a more elegant and practical
solution that might have different economic and crypto characteristics.



On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Adam Back <adam@cypherspace.org> wrote:

> Is there a way to experiment with new features - eg committed coins - that
> doesnt involve an altcoin in the conventional sense, and also doesnt impose
> a big testing burden on bitcoin main which is a security and testing risk?
>
> eg lets say some form of merged mine where an alt-coin lets call it
> bitcoin-staging?  where the coins are the same coins as on bitcoin, the
> mining power goes to bitcoin main, so some aspect of merged mining, but no
> native mining.  and ability to use bitcoins by locking them on bitcoin to
> move them to bitcoin-staging and vice versa (ie exchange them 1:1
> cryptographically, no exchange).
>
> Did anyone figure anything like that out?  Seems vaguely doable and
> maybe productive.  The only people with coins at risk of defects in a new
> feature, or insufficiently well tested novel feature are people with coins
> on bitcoin-staging.
>
> Yes I know about bitcoin-test this is not it.  I mean a real live system,
> with live value, but that is intentionally wanting to avoid forking
> bitcoins
> parameters, nor value, nor mindshare dillution.  In this way something
> potentially interesting could move forward faster, and be les risky to the
> main bitcoin network.  eg particularly defenses against
>
> It might also be a more real world test test (after bitcoin-test) because
> some parameters are different on test, and some issues may not manifest
> without more real activity.
>
> Then also bitcoin could cherry pick interesting patches and merge them
> after
> extensive real-world validation with real-money at stake (by early
> adopters).
>
> Adam
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AlienVault Unified Security Management (USM) platform delivers complete
> security visibility with the essential security capabilities. Easily and
> efficiently configure, manage, and operate all of your security controls
> from a single console and one unified framework. Download a free trial.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/alienvault_d2d
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>



-- 
Are you coming to Bitcoin2013 <http://bitcoin2013.com> in San Jose In May?
------------------------------

[image: CoinLab Logo]PETER VESSENES
CEO

*peter@coinlab.com * /  206.486.6856  / SKYPE: vessenes
71 COLUMBIA ST / SUITE 300  /  SEATTLE, WA 98104

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I think this is a very interesting idea. As Bitcoiners, we=
 often stuff things into the &#39;alt chain&#39; bucket in our heads; I won=
der if this idea works better as a curing period, essentially an extended v=
ersion of the current 100 block wait for mined coins.<div>

<br></div><div>An alternate setup comes to mind; I can imagine this working=
 as a sort of gift economy; people pay real BTC for merge-mined &quot;beta =
BTC&quot; as a way to support development. There is no doubt a more elegant=
 and practical solution that might have different economic and crypto chara=
cteristics.<br>

<div style><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Adam Back <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adam@cypherspace.org" target=3D"_blank">adam@cy=
pherspace.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Is there a way to experiment with new featur=
es - eg committed coins - that<br>
doesnt involve an altcoin in the conventional sense, and also doesnt impose=
<br>
a big testing burden on bitcoin main which is a security and testing risk?<=
br>
<br>
eg lets say some form of merged mine where an alt-coin lets call it<br>
bitcoin-staging? =A0where the coins are the same coins as on bitcoin, the<b=
r>
mining power goes to bitcoin main, so some aspect of merged mining, but no<=
br>
native mining. =A0and ability to use bitcoins by locking them on bitcoin to=
<br>
move them to bitcoin-staging and vice versa (ie exchange them 1:1<br>
cryptographically, no exchange).<br>
<br>
Did anyone figure anything like that out? =A0Seems vaguely doable and<br>
maybe productive. =A0The only people with coins at risk of defects in a new=
<br>
feature, or insufficiently well tested novel feature are people with coins<=
br>
on bitcoin-staging.<br>
<br>
Yes I know about bitcoin-test this is not it. =A0I mean a real live system,=
<br>
with live value, but that is intentionally wanting to avoid forking bitcoin=
s<br>
parameters, nor value, nor mindshare dillution. =A0In this way something<br=
>
potentially interesting could move forward faster, and be les risky to the<=
br>
main bitcoin network. =A0eg particularly defenses against<br>
<br>
It might also be a more real world test test (after bitcoin-test) because<b=
r>
some parameters are different on test, and some issues may not manifest<br>
without more real activity.<br>
<br>
Then also bitcoin could cherry pick interesting patches and merge them afte=
r<br>
extensive real-world validation with real-money at stake (by early<br>
adopters).<br>
<br>
Adam<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
AlienVault Unified Security Management (USM) platform delivers complete<br>
security visibility with the essential security capabilities. Easily and<br=
>
efficiently configure, manage, and operate all of your security controls<br=
>
from a single console and one unified framework. Download a free trial.<br>
<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/alienvault_d2d" target=3D"_blank">http://p.s=
f.net/sfu/alienvault_d2d</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"=
ltr">Are you coming to <a href=3D"http://bitcoin2013.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Bitcoin2013</a> in San Jose In May?=A0<br><hr style=3D"font-family:Times;f=
ont-size:medium;border-right-width:0px;border-bottom-width:0px;border-left-=
width:0px;border-top-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(204,204,204);margin:1=
0px 0px">

<p style=3D"font-size:medium;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:1=
em"><span style=3D"color:rgb(50,90,135);text-transform:uppercase"><img src=
=3D"http://coinlab.com/static/images/email_logo.jpg" align=3D"right" alt=3D=
"CoinLab Logo" width=3D"130">PETER=A0<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">VESSE=
NES=A0</span><br>

<span style=3D"color:rgb(96,58,23);font-size:0.8em">CEO</span></span></p><p=
 style=3D"font-size:medium;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:1em=
"><span style=3D"color:rgb(96,58,23);font-size:0.9em"><strong><a href=3D"ma=
ilto:peter@coinlab.com" style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(96,58,23)" =
target=3D"_blank">peter@coinlab.com</a>=A0</strong>=A0/=A0=A0206.486.6856 =
=A0/=A0<span style=3D"font-size:0.7em;text-transform:uppercase">SKYPE:</spa=
n>=A0vessenes=A0</span><br>

<span style=3D"color:rgb(96,58,23);font-size:0.7em;text-transform:uppercase=
">71 COLUMBIA ST / SUITE 300 =A0/=A0 SEATTLE, WA 98104</span></p></div>
</div>

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