To: James MacWhyte <macwhyte@gmail.com>,
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
	thealanevans@gmail.com
References: <68330522-7e7c-c3b4-99a9-1c68ddb56f23@gmail.com>
	<f2d73a92-e1c5-9072-e255-fa012a9f9d1b@satoshilabs.com>
	<db184306-7ec0-322e-5637-7889b51f50bf@gmail.com>
	<CAH+Axy6dKDOkE6cQYZUusTUxxOSwWchOWxYh6ZkhnOgXuELaYg@mail.gmail.com>
	<743fb106-977e-1f34-47af-9fb3b8621e72@gmail.com>
	<CAH+Axy7v=26P8=CJPUqymKOcromGz+zYZ2cb2KaASgXNPpE2tQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<c91cd61b-3ec5-6c7a-c7e3-7ceb48539625@gmail.com>
	<CALPhJawf98+uqZXQRGH3Tjo1CnZJfE+CMw9J2ZqiHHmwDSdugQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAH+Axy72BTi8+yiUnbrr_Fd8XDf0g6eygOT-6OHRZ8En7W3qbA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Aymeric Vitte <vitteaymeric@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <2df60f7f-58a4-b5b6-757f-7d50a339ff97@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 01:02:35 +0100
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP39 seeds
Precedence: list

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What I have in mind is in my latest reply (difficult to have some kind
of fluent discussions on this list given the moderation and delayed posts)

I would just add that the derivation method (indeed something like what
you are sketching below) should estimate that there is enough entropy
from the secret, if not just throw

Le 02/01/2019 à 19:06, James MacWhyte via bitcoin-dev a écrit :
> On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 3:40 AM Alan Evans via bitcoin-dev
> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>
>
>     I think any method that doesn't use real entropy, but some fake
>     source of randomness, such as a book is asking to be hacked and so
>     is not a reasonable idea.
>
>     If an algorithm for book text to BIP39 sentence ever became well
>     used, common books will be systematically searched for accounts.
>     People will also choose their favourite passages, so I would
>     expect to see collisions.
>
>
> I tend to have this conversation a lot ;) I'm not sure what Aymeric
> has in mind, but my suggestions are for use by the small few who
> properly understand how these things work. I am not suggesting
> blockchain.info <http://blockchain.info> require every user to choose
> a book passage to use as their backup phrase!
>
> There are so many small things that could be done to make a text input
> unique. Choose the X number of words from the start of the Nth
> sentence. Replace all punctuation with exclamation points. Combine two
> sentences from different pages. It would be nigh impossible to brute
> force any of these, and would require hints/instructions from the
> owner to recover.
>
> But I admit if this is not intended for standardization, discussing it
> on this mailing list is probably unwarranted.
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

-- 
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Bitcoin wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets
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node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms


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    <p>What I have in mind is in my latest reply (difficult to have some
      kind of fluent discussions on this list given the moderation and
      delayed posts)</p>
    <p>I would just add that the derivation method (indeed something
      like what you are sketching below) should estimate that there is
      enough entropy from the secret, if not just throw<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 02/01/2019 à 19:06, James MacWhyte
      via bitcoin-dev a écrit :<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAH+Axy72BTi8+yiUnbrr_Fd8XDf0g6eygOT-6OHRZ8En7W3qbA@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          <div dir="ltr">On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 3:40 AM Alan Evans via
            bitcoin-dev &lt;<a
              href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;
            wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
            0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
            rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div dir="ltr">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>I think any method that doesn't use real entropy,
                    but some fake source of randomness, such as a book
                    is asking to be hacked and so is not a reasonable
                    idea.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>If an algorithm for book text to BIP39
                    sentence ever became well used, common books will be
                    systematically searched for accounts. People will
                    also choose their favourite passages, so I would
                    expect to see collisions.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>I tend to have this conversation a lot ;) I'm not sure
            what Aymeric has in mind, but my suggestions are for use by
            the small few who properly understand how these things work.
            I am not suggesting <a href="http://blockchain.info"
              moz-do-not-send="true">blockchain.info</a> require every
            user to choose a book passage to use as their backup phrase!</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>There are so many small things that could be done to make
            a text input unique. Choose the X number of words from the
            start of the Nth sentence. Replace all punctuation with
            exclamation points. Combine two sentences from different
            pages. It would be nigh impossible to brute force any of
            these, and would require hints/instructions from the owner
            to recover.</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>But I admit if this is not intended for standardization,
            discussing it on this mailing list is probably unwarranted.</div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Move your coins by yourself (browser version): <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://peersm.com/wallet">https://peersm.com/wallet</a>
Bitcoin transactions made simple: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transactions">https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transactions</a>
Zcash wallets made simple: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets">https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets</a>
Bitcoin wallets made simple: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets">https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets</a>
Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://peersm.com/getblocklist">http://peersm.com/getblocklist</a>
Check the 10 M passwords list: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://peersm.com/findmyass">http://peersm.com/findmyass</a>
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://torrent-live.org">http://torrent-live.org</a>
Peersm : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.peersm.com">http://www.peersm.com</a>
torrent-live: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live">https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live</a>
node-Tor : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor">https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor</a>
GitHub : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.github.com/Ayms">https://www.github.com/Ayms</a></pre>
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