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[202.12.124.155]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 71dfb90a1353d-52a9933e8c9si11216e0c.3.2025.04.28.09.25.52 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 28 Apr 2025 09:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 202.12.124.155 as permitted sender) client-ip=202.12.124.155; Received: from phl-compute-02.internal (phl-compute-02.phl.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailfhigh.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B78D5254027F for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:25:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-01 ([10.202.2.162]) by phl-compute-02.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:25:51 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeefvddrtddtgddviedugedvucetufdoteggodetrf dotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggv pdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpih gvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhephfgtgfgguffffhfvjgfkofesthhqmhdthhdt vdenucfhrhhomhepufhjohhrshcurfhrohhvohhoshhtuceoshhjohhrshesshhprhhovh hoohhsthdrnhhlqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefhhffgtddtffehgfduheejfeeiteef ieeugeeugeelhedufeeufefhhefgtdeludenucffohhmrghinhepghhnuhhshhgrrdhorh hgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhj ohhrshesshhprhhovhhoohhsthdrnhhlpdhnsggprhgtphhtthhopedupdhmohguvgepsh hmthhpohhuthdprhgtphhtthhopegsihhttghoihhnuggvvhesghhoohhglhgvghhrohhu phhsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ie5e042df:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:25:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Sjors Provoost Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.500.181.1.5\)) Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing checkpoints in Bitcoin Core v30 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2025 18:25:39 +0200 References: To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <8E4DFC2E-23D4-4D22-87C5-415A3CFC7E57@sprovoost.nl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.500.181.1.5) X-Original-Sender: sjors@sprovoost.nl X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@sprovoost.nl header.s=fm1 header.b=AvyazvuU; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=BeOvQ7m5; spf=pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 202.12.124.155 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sjors@sprovoost.nl; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=sprovoost.nl Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) Note that my original mail was written in a hurry and does not provide a fu= ll overview of the arguments for and against checkpoints. Perhaps this thre= ad can serve as a collection point for the various historical discussions t= hat were had on this topic. In the context of BIP30 [0] Eric Voskuil brought up performance: > The top checkpoint is consensus for over 11 years and materially reduces= the validation cost of 295,000 blocks. I don't think performance should be a consideration when removing checkpoin= ts. Afaik checkpoints were not introduced as a performance feature, but rather = as a DoS vulnerability fix. Even if they were, imo they shouldn't be used for performance enhancement, = as it creates a temptation to add more - although Eric clearly says: > I would never advocate for adding more But perhaps someone else would fork Bitcoin Core (or Libbitcoin) and start = with honest checkpoints, in order to gain adoption due its excellent perfor= mance - especially when combined with a UTXO snapshot. And then suddenly it= has an "upgrade". But even if this wasn't a concern, the performance benefit of the latest ch= eckpoint from 2014 is just very small. That's because the early blocks don'= t have that many signatures to check. The first 5 years of Bitcoin represen= t only 3% of all historical transactions. On an M4 MacBook I did an IBD up to the last checkpoint at height 295,000. = This took 17.5 minutes. I then ran it again with -assumevalid=3D0, i.e. checking all signatures, wh= ich took 18 minutes.=20 These times are from connecting the first block until connecting block 295,= 000. They exclude the 1.5 minutes spent on the header pre-sync mechanism, w= hich is required to operate safely with or without (new) checkpoints. In bo= th cases I used -dbcache=3D3000 to avoid UTXO set disk I/O. The difference is 30 seconds, but let's round that up to 1 minute because m= y setup isn't a clean lab. A full IBD takes at least 5 hours on this machine, so the benefit is roughl= y 0.3% (unless we add another checkpoint). Loading a UTXO snapshot at the checkpoint height, without doing background = validation of historical blocks, might get us an additional 15 minute speed= up, which is still only 5%. Libbitcoin would probably find a different ratio, as might a machine with s= evere CPU limitations, but I suspect it will be equally negliable. And with= out new checkpoints the ratio keeps going down over time. Note that -assumevalid doesn't need checkpoints, it just falls back to more= slow validation if there is a major reorg (but perhaps sub catastrophic). = Its performance benefit for the present day blockchain should be much highe= r than what I found here. That said, I've never been a fan of -assumevalid conceptually. Hopefully it= can be replaced by something like AssumeUTXO + SwiftSync [1] for the backg= round with full validation using block Undo data. - Sjors [0] https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/E8225EAC-BED8-4840-8E3D-81A55C365209@v= oskuil.org/T/#mf3d290b70bae822cf31a683439ca8dbaed443e42 [1] https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAPv7TjaM0tfbcBTRa0_713Bk6Y9jr+ShOC1KZ= i2V3V2zooTXyg@mail.gmail.com/ --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 8E4DFC2E-23D4-4D22-87C5-415A3CFC7E57%40sprovoost.nl.