Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:13:15 -0400
From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
To: Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au>,
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Message-ID: <Y1HH+zOBHubYsiHR@petertodd.org>
References: <CABZBVTC5kh7ca3KhVkFPdQjnsPhP4Kun1k3K6cPkarrjUiTJpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABZBVTCgiQFtxEyeOU=-SGDQUDthyy7sOgPwiT+OVi35LVivyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Y1D3OkdsCq2pLduG@erisian.com.au>
 <CABZBVTBupMcBbOUtLbMaEmAiWGsMwisNW+k+bTUJGsUad2=ZZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Y1Gocf216O+yKqqS@erisian.com.au>
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In-Reply-To: <Y1Gocf216O+yKqqS@erisian.com.au>
Cc: Sergej Kotliar <sergej@bitrefill.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate
 danger
Precedence: list


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On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 05:58:41AM +1000, Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev wro=
te:
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 02:37:53PM +0200, Sergej Kotliar via bitcoin-dev =
wrote:
> > > If someone's going to systematically exploit your store via this
> > > mechanism, it seems like they'd just find a single wallet with a good
> > > UX for opt-in RBF and lowballing fees, and go to town -- not something
> > > where opt-in rbf vs fullrbf policies make any difference at all?
> > Sort of. But yes once this starts being abused systemically we will hav=
e to
> > do something else w RBF payments, such as crediting the amount in BTC t=
o a
> > custodial account. But this option isn't available to your normal payme=
nt
> > processor type business.
>=20
> So, what I'm hearing is:
>=20
>  * lightning works great, but is still pretty small
>  * zeroconf works great for txs that opt-out of RBF

It's important to note that the businesses that say "zeroconf works great" =
for
them, appear to be achieving that by sybil attacking the network to measure
propagation. That's not sustainable nor decentralized, as only a small numb=
er
of companies can do that without causing a lot of harm to Bitcoin by using =
up
inbound slots. We've gone through this before with "zeroconf guarantee"
services, and the end result is not good.

It's in our interests to make sure those companies stop doing that, and no =
new
companies start.

--=20
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org

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