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From: Matt Corallo <lf-lists@mattcorallo.com>
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Date: Fri, 5 May 2023 22:58:55 -0700
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To: Michael Folkson <michaelfolkson@protonmail.com>,
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Cc: Lightning Dev <lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] A new Bitcoin implementation
	integrated with Core Lightning
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi M=
ichael,</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">While I don=E2=80=99=
t think forks of Core with an intent to drive consensus rule changes (or lac=
k thereof) benefits the bitcoin system as the Bitcoin Core project stands to=
day, if you want to build a nice full node wallet with lightning based on a f=
ork of Core, there was code written to do this some years ago.</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bi=
tcoin/pull/18179">https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18179</a></div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">It never went anywhere as lightning=
 (and especially LDK!) were far from ready to be a first class feature in bi=
tcoin core at the time (and I=E2=80=99d argue still today), but as a separat=
e project it could be interesting, at least if maintenance burden were kept t=
o a sustainable level.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Matt=
</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
On Jan 14, 2023, at 13:03, Michael Folkson via Lightning-dev &lt;lightning-d=
ev@lists.linuxfoundation.org&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div style=3D"font-family: Arial; f=
ont-size: 14px;">I tweeted this [0] back in November 2022.</div><div style=3D=
"font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: A=
rial; font-size: 14px;">"With the btcd bugs and the analysis paralysis on a R=
BF policy option in Core increasingly thinking @BitcoinKnots and consensus c=
ompatible forks of Core are the future. Gonna chalk that one up to another t=
hing @LukeDashjr was right about all along."</div><div style=3D"font-family:=
 Arial; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-s=
ize: 14px;">A new bare bones Knots style Bitcoin implementation (in C++/C) i=
ntegrated with Core Lightning was a long term idea I had (and presumably man=
y others have had) but the dysfunction on the Bitcoin Core project this week=
 (if anything it has been getting worse over time, not better) has made me s=
tart to take the idea more seriously. It is clear to me that the current way=
 the Bitcoin Core project is being managed is not how I would like an open s=
ource project to be managed. Very little discussion is public anymore and de=
cisions seem to be increasingly made behind closed doors or in private IRC c=
hannels (to the extent that decisions are made at all). Core Lightning seems=
 to have the opposite problem. It is managed effectively in the open (admitt=
edly with fewer contributors) but doesn't have the eyeballs or the usage tha=
t Bitcoin Core does. Regardless, selfishly I at some point would like a bare=
 bones Bitcoin and Lightning implementation integrated in one codebase. The B=
itcoin Core codebase has collected a lot of cruft over time and the ultra co=
nservatism that is needed when treating (potential) consensus code seems to p=
ermeate into parts of the codebase that no one is using, definitely isn't co=
nsensus code and should probably just be removed.</div><div style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Arial; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial; f=
ont-size: 14px;">The libbitcoinkernel project was (is?) an attempt to extrac=
t the consensus engine out of Core but it seems like it won't achieve that a=
s consensus is just too slippery a concept and Knots style consensus compati=
ble codebase forks of Bitcoin Core seem to still the model. To what extent y=
ou can safely chop off this cruft and effectively maintain this less crufty f=
ork of Bitcoin Core also isn't clear to me yet.</div><div style=3D"font-fami=
ly: Arial; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial; fon=
t-size: 14px;">Then there is the question of whether it makes sense to mix C=
 and C++ code that people have different views on. C++ is obviously a supers=
et of C but assuming this merging of Bitcoin Core and Core Lightning is/was t=
he optimal final destination it surely would have been better if Core Lightn=
ing was written in the same language (i.e. with classes) as Bitcoin Core.</d=
iv><div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D=
"font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;">I'm just floating the idea to (hopefu=
lly) hear from people who are much more familiar with the entirety of the Bi=
tcoin Core and Core Lightning codebases. It would be an ambitious long term p=
roject but it would be nice to focus on some ambitious project(s) (even if j=
ust conceptually) for a while given (thankfully) there seems to be a lull in=
 soft fork activation chaos.</div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-siz=
e: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;">Than=
ks</div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;">Michael</div><di=
v style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"fon=
t-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(34, 34, 34); ba=
ckground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">[0]:&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Times;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(0, 0, 0)=
;display:inline !important"><a href=3D"https://twitter.com/michaelfolkson/st=
atus/1589220155006910464?s=3D20&amp;t=3DGbPm7w5BqS7rS3kiVFTNcw"><span style=3D=
"color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">https://twit=
ter.com/michaelfolkson/status/1589220155006910464?s=3D20&amp;t=3DGbPm7w5BqS7=
rS3kiVFTNcw</span></a></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-si=
ze: 14px;"><br></div>
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family:'SFMono-Regular', Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Menlo, monospace, mono=
space;" class=3D"font"><span style=3D"font-size:14px;" class=3D"size">--<br>=
Michael Folkson<br>Email: michaelfolkson at </span></span></span><a href=3D"=
http://protonmail.com/" style=3D"line-height:normal;text-decoration:underlin=
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ze:14px;" class=3D"size">Keybase: michaelfolkson<br>PGP: 43ED C999 9F85 1D40=
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