Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WO8ez-0003Bq-7s for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 16:39:09 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.53; envelope-from=melvincarvalho@gmail.com; helo=mail-la0-f53.google.com; Received: from mail-la0-f53.google.com ([209.85.215.53]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WO8ex-00008G-JP for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 16:39:09 +0000 Received: by mail-la0-f53.google.com with SMTP id b8so865767lan.40 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 09:39:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.170.234 with SMTP id ap10mr1803908lbc.23.1394728740962; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 09:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.26.38 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 09:39:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <52852C2D.9020103@gmail.com> <52853D8A.6010501@monetize.io> Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 17:39:00 +0100 Message-ID: From: Melvin Carvalho To: Mike Hearn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c373ec29c71504f47f97a8 X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (melvincarvalho[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1WO8ex-00008G-JP Cc: Bitcoin Dev , Wendell Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 16:39:09 -0000 --001a11c373ec29c71504f47f97a8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 13 March 2014 16:50, Mike Hearn wrote: > On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Jeff Garzik wrote: > >> Such hand-wavy, data-free logic is precisely why community >> coordination is preferred to random apps making random decisions in >> this manner. >> > > That ship sailed months ago. If you wanted a big push for uBTC, then would > have been the time. Though given that it'd have made lots of normal > balances incredibly huge, perhaps it's a good thing that didn't happen. > Also "milli" is a unit people encounter in daily life whereas micro isn't. > Is it milli / micro / nano or milli / nano / micro? I bet a lot of people > would get that wrong. > > If you have to export to financial packages that can't handle fractional > pennies, then by all means represent prices in whatever units you like for > that purpose, but in software designed for ordinary people in everyday life > mBTC is a pretty good fit. > > Besides, fractional pennies crop up in existing currencies too (the famous > Verizon Math episode showed this), so if a financial package insists on > rounding to 2dp then I guess it may sometimes do the wrong thing in some > business cases already. > > Fundamentally, more than two decimal places tends to violate the >> Principle Of Least Astonishment with many humans, and as a result, >> popular software systems have been written with that assumption. > > > Lots of people use currencies that don't have any fractional components at > all ! So perhaps all prices should be denominated in satoshis to ensure > that they're not surprised :) > > The (number) line has to be drawn somewhere. Wallets are free to suppress > more than 2dp of precision and actually Andreas' app lets you choose your > preferred precision. So I think in the end it won't matter a whole lot, if > the defaults end up being wrong people can change them until wallet authors > catch up. > +1 agree with Mike on everything A couple of points: 1. bitcoinity already switched to mbtc aka millitbits ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MilliBit ) and it was positively recieved, they got quite a few donations 2. If you watch Gavin's talk at the CFR he suggests the community comes to a consensus through implementations rather than top down decision making (If I understood correctly) I think it's up to wallet maintainers whether to switch the default. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > --001a11c373ec29c71504f47f97a8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On 13 March 2014 16:50, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net> w= rote:
On Thu, Mar 1= 3, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com> wrote:=
Such hand-wavy, data= -free logic is precisely why community
coordination is preferred to random apps making random decisions in
this manner.

That ship sailed mon= ths ago. If you wanted a big push for uBTC, then would have been the time. = Though given that it'd have made lots of normal balances incredibly hug= e, perhaps it's a good thing that didn't happen. Also "milli&q= uot; is a unit people encounter in daily life whereas micro isn't. Is i= t milli / micro / nano or milli / nano / micro? I bet a lot of people would= get that wrong.

If you have to export to financial packages that can= 9;t handle fractional pennies, then by all means represent prices in whatev= er units you like for that purpose, but in software designed for ordinary p= eople in everyday life mBTC is a pretty good fit.
=A0
Besides, fractional pennies crop up in existing currenci= es too (the famous Verizon Math episode showed this), so if a financial pac= kage insists on rounding to 2dp then I guess it may sometimes do the wrong = thing in some business cases already.

Fundamenta= lly, more than two decimal places tends to violate the
Principle Of Least Astonishment with many humans, and as a result,
popular software systems have been written with that assumption.

Lots of people use currencies that don't ha= ve any fractional components at all ! So perhaps all prices should be denom= inated in satoshis to ensure that they're not surprised :)

The (number) line has to be drawn somewhere. Wallets ar= e free to suppress more than 2dp of precision and actually Andreas' app= lets you choose your preferred precision. So I think in the end it won'= ;t matter a whole lot, if the defaults end up being wrong people can change= them until wallet authors catch up.

+1 agree with Mike on ev= erything

A couple of points:

1. bitcoin= ity already switched to mbtc aka millitbits ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MilliBit ) and it was pos= itively recieved, they got quite a few donations

2. If you watch Gavin's talk at the CFR he su= ggests the community comes to a consensus through implementations rather th= an top down decision making (If I understood correctly)

I think it's up to wallet maintainers whether to switch the default.=A0=

=A0

-----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases = and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http://p.sf= .net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
_____________________________________________= __
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-develo= pment@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment


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