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Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2024 21:30:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Calvin Kim <ccychc@gmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: The Future of Bitcoin Testnet
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Ok yeah seems bad enough. I support reseting testnet3.

However, I'm more inclined towards keeping the rules the same. We already=
=20
have the code for resetting the difficulty so any "fix" would be just=20
adding the burden of switching over to the new testnet for everyone. I=20
haven't seen anyone here mention a reason for the change besides the fact=
=20
that resetting testnet would be a good time to implement the change.

--- Calvin
On Thursday, April 4, 2024 at 10:02:15=E2=80=AFPM UTC+9 Jameson Lopp wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 4:29=E2=80=AFAM Calvin Kim <ccy...@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>
>> Throwing myself into the conversation because I think there's other devs=
=20
>> that use testnet like I do.
>> I mainly use testnet for checking if the utreexod implementation I'm=20
>> building runs into consensus
>> bugs due to the havoc of how testnet creates bursts of blocks and how it=
=20
>> reorganizes itself. I find
>> the unpredictability a feature.
>>
>> > 1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 million=
=20
>> something and the block reward is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not=
=20
>> doing a great job at distributing testnet coins any more.
>>
>> For my usage I never really see this as a problem since signet already=
=20
>> provides that usecase. While
>> I can empathize with devs struggling to get coins, there's always signet=
=20
>> for the usecase of testing
>> scripts/wallets. Signet doesn't really provide the same feature for my=
=20
>> usecase.=20
>>
>> > 2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rather=20
>> amusing edge case bug that causes the difficulty to regularly get reset =
to=20
>> 1, which causes a bit of havoc. If you want a deep dive into the quirk:=
=20
>> https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/
>>
>> I stated this above but I find this as a feature.
>>
>> > 3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of us wh=
o=20
>> tend to be generous with our testnet coins are getting hounded by=20
>> non-developers chasing cheap gains.
>>
>> Could I get links/sources for this? I'm curious as to how big of a=20
>> problem this is.
>>
>> SatoshiVM airdrop: https://twitter.com/lopp/status/1753522413466464756
>
> Not sure how to prove that I'm inundated with beggars; I've probably=20
> gotten 50 messages on a variety of platforms this year from non-developer=
s=20
> asking for testnet coins.
>
> > 4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one could argue=
=20
>> that the fundamental principle of testnet coins having no value has been=
=20
>> broken.
>>
>> Same for this. Would appreciate links/evidence.
>>
>>
> https://buytestnet.com/
> https://altquick.com/exchange/market/BitcoinTestnet
> =20
>
>> > 1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has=
=20
>> been since the last reset and how many production systems will need to b=
e=20
>> updated, would a reset need to be done with a great deal of notice?
>>
>> I lean towards no unless the problem with testnet coins being valued is=
=20
>> too significant.
>>
>> > 2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It should be =
a=20
>> one liner fix, and I'd argue it could be done sooner rather than later, =
and=20
>> orthogonal to the network reset question. Would such a change, which wou=
ld=20
>> technically be a hard fork (but also arguably a self resolving fork due =
to=20
>> the difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it?
>>
>> Again, I'd lean towards keeping it the same.
>>
>> > 3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead deprecate=
=20
>> testnet in favor of signet?
>>
>> No as signet doesn't have the features I find valuable in testnet.
>>
>> Best,
>> Calvin
>>
>> --=20
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
=20
>> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a=
n=20
>> email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com.
>>
> To view this discussion on the web visit=20
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/950b875a-e430-4bd8-870d-f9a=
9fab2493an%40googlegroups.com=20
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/950b875a-e430-4bd8-870d-f9=
a9fab2493an%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
>> .
>>
>

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Ok yeah seems bad enough. I support reseting testnet3.<div><br /></div><div=
>However, I'm more inclined towards keeping the rules the same. We already =
have the code for resetting the difficulty so any "fix" would be just addin=
g the burden of switching over to the new testnet for everyone. I haven't s=
een anyone here mention a reason for the change besides the fact that reset=
ting testnet would be a good time to implement the change.</div><div><br />=
</div><div>--- Calvin</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" cla=
ss=3D"gmail_attr">On Thursday, April 4, 2024 at 10:02:15=E2=80=AFPM UTC+9 J=
ameson Lopp wrote:<br/></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: =
1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D=
"gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 4:29=E2=80=AFAM Calvin Kim &lt;<a href =
data-email-masked rel=3D"nofollow">ccy...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Throwing myself into the=
 conversation because I think there&#39;s other devs that use testnet like =
I do.<div>I mainly use testnet for checking if the utreexod implementation =
I&#39;m building runs into consensus</div><div>bugs due to the havoc of how=
 testnet creates bursts of blocks and how it reorganizes itself. I find</di=
v><div>the unpredictability a feature.</div><div><br></div><div><div>&gt; 1=
. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It&#39;s on block 2.5 million som=
ething and the block reward is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not doing =
a great job at distributing testnet coins any more.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>For my usage I never really see this as a problem since signet already pr=
ovides that usecase. While</div><div>I can empathize with devs struggling t=
o get coins, there&#39;s always signet for the usecase of testing</div><div=
>scripts/wallets. Signet doesn&#39;t really provide the same feature for my=
 usecase.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>&gt;=C2=A0<span>2. The reason the =
block height is insanely high is due to a rather amusing edge case bug that=
 causes the difficulty to regularly get reset to 1, which causes a bit of h=
avoc. If you want a deep dive into the quirk:=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https:=
//blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/" rel=3D"nofollow" tar=
get=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&a=
mp;q=3Dhttps://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/&amp;sour=
ce=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1712376835988000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw3EOSjHAArHmv-5W5eKDAv=
P">https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/</a></div><di=
v><span><br></span></div><div>I stated this above but I find this as a feat=
ure.</div><div><br></div><div>&gt; 3. Testnet3 is being actively used for s=
cammy airdrops; those of us who tend to be generous with our testnet coins =
are getting hounded by non-developers chasing cheap gains.<br></div><div><b=
r></div><div>Could I get links/sources for this? I&#39;m curious as to how =
big of a problem this is.</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote></div></di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>SatoshiVM airdrop: <a hr=
ef=3D"https://twitter.com/lopp/status/1753522413466464756" target=3D"_blank=
" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3D=
en&amp;q=3Dhttps://twitter.com/lopp/status/1753522413466464756&amp;source=
=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1712376835988000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw1gTHu3RUJV9TowpdPKhpvE"=
>https://twitter.com/lopp/status/1753522413466464756</a></div><div><br></di=
v><div>Not sure how to prove that I&#39;m inundated with beggars; I&#39;ve =
probably gotten 50 messages on a variety of platforms this year from non-de=
velopers asking for testnet coins.</div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div><div></div><div>&gt; 4. As a result, TBTC is being actively=
 bought and sold; one could argue that the fundamental principle of testnet=
=C2=A0coins having no value has been broken.<br></div><div><br></div><div>S=
ame for this. Would appreciate links/evidence.</div><div><br></div></div></=
blockquote><div><br></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div><a href=3D"https://buytestnet.com/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"no=
follow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&amp;q=3D=
https://buytestnet.com/&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1712376835988000&amp;u=
sg=3DAOvVaw3OMg2LhShxtFQXY9Q9OVdA">https://buytestnet.com/</a></div><div><a=
 href=3D"https://altquick.com/exchange/market/BitcoinTestnet" target=3D"_bl=
ank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=
=3Den&amp;q=3Dhttps://altquick.com/exchange/market/BitcoinTestnet&amp;sourc=
e=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1712376835988000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw0a14wNYIIZUKCCW5OOOq9s=
">https://altquick.com/exchange/market/BitcoinTestnet</a></div><div>=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></blockquote></div><=
/div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div></div><div><div>&gt; 1. Should we plan fo=
r a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has been since the last rese=
t and how many production systems will need to be updated, would a reset ne=
ed to be done with a great deal of notice?</div><div><br></div><div>I lean =
towards no unless the problem with testnet coins being valued is too signif=
icant.</div><div><br></div><div>&gt; 2. Is there interest in fixing the dif=
ficulty reset bug? It should be a one liner fix, and I&#39;d argue it could=
 be done sooner rather than later, and orthogonal to the network reset ques=
tion. Would such a change, which would technically be a hard fork (but also=
 arguably a self resolving fork due to the difficulty dynamics) necessitate=
 a BIP or could we just YOLO it?</div><div><br></div><div>Again, I&#39;d le=
an towards keeping it the same.</div><div><br></div><div>&gt; 3. Is all of =
the above a waste of time and we should instead deprecate testnet in favor =
of signet?</div></div><div><br></div><div>No as signet doesn&#39;t have the=
 features I find valuable in testnet.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Best,</d=
iv><div>Calvin</div><div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote></div></div></div>

<p></p></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

-- <br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
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<p></p>

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