Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com
	designates 209.85.214.170 as permitted sender)
	client-ip=209.85.214.170; envelope-from=erik.garrison@gmail.com;
	helo=mail-ob0-f170.google.com; 
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <5353ECDF.6090903@gmail.com>
References: <CAJKMfeQO6pyi5b-83FyMSHcq0Sa1QkP+RouQVBdCYPtXXboY8A@mail.gmail.com>
	<3A69904F-0A3D-42E9-9DE7-067874E710BB@bitsofproof.com>
	<CAPg+sBha=cUHOWcU29yLrC4WTy5EghOGpVGAcQ8S0fuMvpLeRw@mail.gmail.com>
	<DFFB1B2C-F10B-4CF7-9D01-F6A27F9FA229@bitsofproof.com>
	<5353ECDF.6090903@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 18:23:44 +0200
Message-ID: <CALykB6n0PFwRU1gvP+KXdN2ONkOfWZPwhmP-A1fmrAJ_M3iB6A@mail.gmail.com>
From: Erik Garrison <erik.garrison@gmail.com>
To: Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c300de888c0604f77bce1b
Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account
Precedence: list

--001a11c300de888c0604f77bce1b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The world is rapidly becoming a place in which a solid grasp of orders of
magnitude could be considered a basic mathematical skill.  People are very
likely to learn what mBTC and =C2=B5BTC are simply because they risk their =
money
if they do not.  This is not a bad thing and I think stands only to help
people who learn about these monikers for orders of magnitude this way.

Any appropriate nicknames for these denominations is sure to develop in due
course.  Promoting an already-overloaded term that could just as easily be
applied colloquially to refer to a small amount of value in any currency
seems problematic.
 I've been a staunch supporter of "microbitcoin" and would like to do
anything I can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we're going to
promote changing the default units.  And I'm happy to integrate it into
Armory as a default (with appropriate explanations and settings/options).
I'm not so convinced about the "bits" name though -- I do like it, but I do
also think that word is too overloaded.  Though, I think we could get away
with it.

(Sadly, I still use "microbes" occasionally (as in *microb*itcoin) when I'm
talking to coworkers, because it slips off the tongue and is actually a
good combination of brevity and self-explanatory -- it just doesn't instill
the right visuals...)

We started integrating alternative units into Armory.  But, of course,
there were a few more loose ends than I expected, which will require some
work.   We want to put it in but not necessarily change the default right
away.  I'd *prefer* we get some commitments from some other wallet
developers, so we can make a unified push for it.  I'm happy to lead that
and make it default as long as I'm not the only one in the world doing it.

-Alan



On 04/20/2014 11:05 AM, Tamas Blummer wrote:

Here is an earlier reference to bits:


https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/ms=
g04248.html<https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourcefo=
rge.net/msg04248.html>

 I forgot that Alan Reiner was also supporting a unit equals to bits :


https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/ms=
g04264.html<https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourcefo=
rge.net/msg04264.html>

 and here the earlier going back to March 2013 and a poll at that time
pushing for XBT being 1 bit


https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/ms=
g04256.html<https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourcefo=
rge.net/msg04256.html>

 Regards,

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

 On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com> wrote:

I told him specifically to bring it here (on a pull request for
Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention changes
to just one client.

I wasn't aware of any discussion about the "bits" proposal here before.

On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com>
wrote:

People on this list are mostly engineers who have no problem dealing with
magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who have a problem
with them.
They also tend to think, that because they invented money 2.0 they would no=
t
need to care of finance's or people's current customs.

The importance of their decisions in these questions will fade as people
already use wallets other than the core.

Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet developer.

BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my support and Jef=
f
Garzik's.

Regards,

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding
<rob.golding@astutium.com><rob.golding@astutium.com>wrote:

The average person is not going to be confident that the prefix they
are using is the correct one,


The use of any 'prefix' is one of choice and entirely unnecessary, and ther=
e
are already established 'divisions' in u/mBTC for those that feel they need
to use such things.

people WILL send 1000x more or less than
intended if we go down this road,


Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies with 0, 2 and 3
dp's in amount ranging from 'under 1 whole unit' to tens of thousands - Not
once in 20 years has anyone ever 'sent' more or less than intended - oh,
they've 'intended' to underpay just fine, but never *unintended*.

I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate the
Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin (BTC)
equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100 satoshis.


I propose that for people unable to understand what a bitcoin is, they can
just use satoshi's and drop this entire proposal.

Rob


---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development



---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development





---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book
today!http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech



_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing
listBitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/=
lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development



---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

--001a11c300de888c0604f77bce1b
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p dir=3D"ltr">The world is rapidly becoming a place in which a solid grasp=
 of orders of magnitude could be considered a basic mathematical skill.=C2=
=A0 People are very likely to learn what mBTC and =C2=B5BTC are simply beca=
use they risk their money if they do not.=C2=A0 This is not a bad thing and=
 I think stands only to help people who learn about these monikers for orde=
rs of magnitude this way.</p>

<p dir=3D"ltr">Any appropriate nicknames for these denominations is sure to=
 develop in due course.=C2=A0 Promoting an already-overloaded term that cou=
ld just as easily be applied colloquially to refer to a small amount of val=
ue in any currency seems problematic.</p>

<div class=3D"gmail_quot&lt;blockquote class=3D" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    I&#39;ve been a staunch supporter of &quot;microbitcoin&quot; and would=
 like to do
    anything I can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we&#39;re
    going to promote changing the default units.=C2=A0 And I&#39;m happy to
    integrate it into Armory as a default (with appropriate explanations
    and settings/options).=C2=A0 I&#39;m not so convinced about the &quot;b=
its&quot; name
    though -- I do like it, but I do also think that word is too
    overloaded.=C2=A0 Though, I think we could get away with it.=C2=A0 <br>
    <br>
    (Sadly, I still use &quot;microbes&quot; occasionally (as in <b>microb<=
/b>itcoin)
    when I&#39;m talking to coworkers, because it slips off the tongue and
    is actually a good combination of brevity and self-explanatory -- it
    just doesn&#39;t instill the right visuals...)<br>
    <br>
    We started integrating alternative units into Armory.=C2=A0 But, of
    course, there were a few more loose ends than I expected, which will
    require some work.=C2=A0=C2=A0 We want to put it in but not necessarily=
 change
    the default right away.=C2=A0 I&#39;d <i>prefer</i> we get some commitm=
ents
    from some other wallet developers, so we can make a unified push for
    it.=C2=A0 I&#39;m happy to lead that and make it default as long as I&#=
39;m not
    the only one in the world doing it.<br>
    <br>
    -Alan<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div>On 04/20/2014 11:05 AM, Tamas Blummer
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      <div>Here is an earlier reference to bits:</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><a href=3D"https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@list=
s.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html" target=3D"_blank">https://www.mail-archive=
.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html</a></div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>I forgot that Alan Reiner was
        also supporting a unit equals to bits :</div>
      <div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><a href=3D"https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@li=
sts.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html" target=3D"_blank">https://www.mail-archi=
ve.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html</a></div>

        <div><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div>and here the earlier going back
        to March 2013 and a poll at that time pushing for XBT being 1
        bit</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><a href=3D"https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@list=
s.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html" target=3D"_blank">https://www.mail-archive=
.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html</a></div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-varian=
t:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;display:inline!important=
;font-weight:normal;float:none;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-=
size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">Regard=
s,</span><br style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:no=
rmal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-heig=
ht:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family=
:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">

        <br style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:nor=
mal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-heigh=
t:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:=
Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">

        <span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:n=
ormal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;display:inline!important;fo=
nt-weight:normal;float:none;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-siz=
e:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">Tamas Blu=
mmer</span><span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-varian=
t:normal;text-align:start;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:=
normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:He=
lvetica;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:norma=
l;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight=
:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:n=
ormal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">

          <span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant=
:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;display:inline!important;=
font-weight:normal;float:none;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-s=
ize:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px"><a href=
=3D"http://bitsofproof.com" target=3D"_blank">http://bitsofproof.com</a></s=
pan>
        </span></div>
      <br>
      <div>
        <div>On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:p=
ieter.wuille@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">pieter.wuille@gmail.com</a>&gt;
          wrote:</div>
        <br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">I told him specifically to bring it here
          (on a pull request for<br>
          Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention
          changes<br>
          to just one client.<br>
          <br>
          I wasn&#39;t aware of any discussion about the &quot;bits&quot; p=
roposal
          here before.<br>
          <br>
          On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:tamas@bitsofproof.com" target=3D"_blank">tamas@bitsofproof.com</a>&gt;
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote type=3D"cite">People on this list are mostly
            engineers who have no problem dealing with<br>
            magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who
            have a problem<br>
            with them.<br>
            They also tend to think, that because they invented money
            2.0 they would not<br>
            need to care of finance&#39;s or people&#39;s current customs.<=
br>
            <br>
            The importance of their decisions in these questions will
            fade as people<br>
            already use wallets other than the core.<br>
            <br>
            Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet
            developer.<br>
            <br>
            BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my
            support and Jeff<br>
            Garzik&#39;s.<br>
            <br>
            Regards,<br>
            <br>
            Tamas Blummer<br>
            <a href=3D"http://bitsofproof.com" target=3D"_blank">http://bit=
sofproof.com</a><br>
            <br>
            On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding
            <a href=3D"mailto:rob.golding@astutium.com" target=3D"_blank">&=
lt;rob.golding@astutium.com&gt;</a> wrote:<br>
            <br>
            The average person is not going to be confident that the
            prefix they<br>
            are using is the correct one,<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            The use of any &#39;prefix&#39; is one of choice and entirely
            unnecessary, and there<br>
            are already established &#39;divisions&#39; in u/mBTC for those=
 that
            feel they need<br>
            to use such things.<br>
            <br>
            people WILL send 1000x more or less than<br>
            intended if we go down this road,<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies
            with 0, 2 and 3<br>
            dp&#39;s in amount ranging from &#39;under 1 whole unit&#39; to=
 tens of
            thousands - Not<br>
            once in 20 years has anyone ever &#39;sent&#39; more or less th=
an
            intended - oh,<br>
            they&#39;ve &#39;intended&#39; to underpay just fine, but never
            *unintended*.<br>
            <br>
            I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate
            the<br>
            Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin
            (BTC)<br>
            equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100
            satoshis.<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            I propose that for people unable to understand what a
            bitcoin is, they can<br>
            just use satoshi&#39;s and drop this entire proposal.<br>
            <br>
            Rob<br>
            <br>
            <br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
            Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O&#39;Reilly Book<br>
            &quot;Graph Databases&quot; is the definitive new guide to grap=
h
            databases and their<br>
            applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
            field,<br>
            this first edition is now available. Download your free book
            today!<br>
            <a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D"_blank">http:=
//p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech</a><br>
            _______________________________________________<br>
            Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
            <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
            Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O&#39;Reilly Book<br>
            &quot;Graph Databases&quot; is the definitive new guide to grap=
h
            databases and their<br>
            applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
            field,<br>
            this first edition is now available. Download your free book
            today!<br>
            <a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D"_blank">http:=
//p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech</a><br>
            _______________________________________________<br>
            Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
            <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
            <br>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br>
      <br>
      <fieldset></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre>----------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O&#39;Reilly Book
&quot;Graph Databases&quot; is the definitive new guide to graph databases =
and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D"_blank">http://p.sf.net/s=
fu/NeoTech</a></pre>
      <br>
      <fieldset></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre>_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div>

<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br>
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O&#39;Reilly Book<br>
&quot;Graph Databases&quot; is the definitive new guide to graph databases =
and their<br>
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,<br>
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!<br>
<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D"_blank">http://p.sf.net/s=
fu/NeoTech</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
<br></div>

--001a11c300de888c0604f77bce1b--