Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 22:02:27 -0400
From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
To: Mark Friedenbach <mark@friedenbach.org>,
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Message-ID: <20170929020227.GA12192@savin.petertodd.org>
References: <359FFE85-86AF-4FBD-9491-3528382E5002@friedenbach.org>
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In-Reply-To: <359FFE85-86AF-4FBD-9491-3528382E5002@friedenbach.org>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12)
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Rebatable fees & incentive-safe fee markets
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On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 06:06:29PM -0700, Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev =
wrote:
> Unlike other proposed fixes to the fee model, this is not trivially
> broken by paying the miner out of band.  If you pay out of band fee
> instead of regular fee, then your transaction cannot be included with
> other regular fee paying transactions without the miner giving up all
> regular fee income.  Any transaction paying less fee in-band than the
> otherwise minimum fee rate needs to also provide ~1Mvbyte * fee rate
> difference fee to make up for that lost income.  So out of band fee is
> only realistically considered when it pays on top of a regular feerate
> paying transaction that would have been included in the block anyway.
> And what would be the point of that?

This proposed fix is itself broken, because the miner can easily include *o=
nly*
transactions paying out-of-band, at which point the fee can be anything.
Equally, miners can provide fee *rebates*, forcing up prices for everyone e=
lse
while still allowing them to make deals.

Also, remember that you can pay fees via anyone-can-spend outputs, as miners
have full ability to control what transactions end up spending those output=
s.

The fact these countermeasures are all likely to be implemented - all of wh=
ich
harm the overall ecosystem by reducing visibility of fees and making it har=
der
to compete with centralized miners - makes me very dubious about that propo=
sal.

--=20
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org

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