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To: Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect.com>,
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From: CryptAxe <cryptaxe@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 15:07:47 -0700
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You guys are both right that it is a different security model, with the
important distinction that it is opt-in. What I disagree with about what
you said is only that we are encouraging more risky behavior by adding
consensus rules via softfork. There are additional risks with
drivechains, but not because of how the new consensus rules would be
added (it would be the same risk as the P2SH softfork).
What's been explained to me a few times is that the
anyone-can-spend-ness of new transaction types that depend on softforked
consensus rules are exponentially less risky to the point that it is
infeasible to steal them as blocks are added to the chain that activated
the soft fork. I believe that Luke-Jr and Lopp are both very good at
explaining this and I know that Lopp has actually done some research as
to the cost of stealing these outputs. I can't remember the link but you
might find that with a google. One of them might even chime in and
explain that I'm totally wrong again!
Sorry for being a bit heated in my last response.
On 07/12/2017 02:55 PM, Tao Effect wrote:
> That's a fair point, I confused anyone-can-spend with anyone-can-pay [1=
].
>
> Isn't it different in the case of P2SH and SegWit, don't full nodes
> validate the script?
>
> In other words, miners don't have complete control over the coins,
> full nodes keep a check on them.
>
> At least that was my understanding, and if that's not the case then it
> doesn't make sense to me why Pieter would earlier in this thread
> object to Drivechain on the grounds that it's a different security mode=
l.
>
> - Greg
>
> [1] https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@jl777/bitcoin-spinoff-fork-how-to-make=
-a-clean-fork-without-any-replay-attack-and-no-blockchain-visible-changes=
>
>
> --
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
> sharing with the NSA.
>
>> On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:54 PM, CryptAxe via bitcoin-dev
>> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Are we just pulling numbers out of thin air now? https://p2sh.info/
>> BIP16 for example is widely used. It would be difficult to find a
>> single wallet that doesn't support BIP16 I have no idea what you are
>> talking about.
>>
>>
>> On 07/12/2017 12:42 PM, Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>>> ...
>>> In the present situation, anyone-can-spend outputs are used by
>>> probably less than 0.1% of users, and most software doesn't even
>>> allow for the possibility.
>>>
>>> In Drivechain it's *encouraged-by-design*!
>>>
>>> - Greg
>>>
>>> --
>>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
>>> sharing with the NSA.
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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<p>You guys are both right that it is a different security model,
with the important distinction that it is opt-in. What I disagree
with about what you said is only that we are encouraging more
risky behavior by adding consensus rules via softfork. There are
additional risks with drivechains, but not because of how the new
consensus rules would be added (it would be the same risk as the
P2SH softfork). <br>
</p>
<p>What's been explained to me a few times is that the
anyone-can-spend-ness of new transaction types that depend on
softforked consensus rules are exponentially less risky to the
point that it is infeasible to steal them as blocks are added to
the chain that activated the soft fork. I believe that Luke-Jr and
Lopp are both very good at explaining this and I know that Lopp
has actually done some research as to the cost of stealing these
outputs. I can't remember the link but you might find that with a
google. One of them might even chime in and explain that I'm
totally wrong again!<br>
</p>
<p>Sorry for being a bit heated in my last response.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>On 07/12/2017 02:55 PM, Tao Effect wrote:<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2AB8B976-5E62-4B1A-9B1B-0109EA4F606F@taoeffect.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
That's a fair point, I confused anyone-can-spend
with�anyone-can-pay [1].
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Isn't it different in the case of P2SH and SegWit,
don't full nodes validate the script?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In other words, miners don't have complete control
over the coins, full nodes keep a check on them.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">At least that was my understanding, and if that's
not the case then it doesn't make sense to me why Pieter would
earlier in this thread object to Drivechain on the grounds that
it's a different security model.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">- Greg</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">[1]�<a
href="https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@jl777/bitcoin-spinoff-fork-how-to-make-a-clean-fork-without-any-replay-attack-and-no-blockchain-visible-changes"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@jl777/bitcoin-spinoff-fork-how-to-make-a-clean-fork-without-any-replay-attack-and-no-blockchain-visible-changes</a>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric:
normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
--</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric:
normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric:
normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">Please do not email
me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing</span><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric:
normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">�with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:54 PM, CryptAxe
via bitcoin-dev <<a
href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252" class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<p class="">Are we just pulling numbers out of
thin air now? <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://p2sh.info/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://p2sh.info/</a>
BIP16 for example is widely used. It would be
difficult to find a single wallet that doesn't
support BIP16 I have no idea what you are
talking about.<br class="">
</p>
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/12/2017 12:42
PM, Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev wrote:<br
class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:18A9E11A-07B2-48B4-B4E7-66A563A97A13@taoeffect.com"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
class="">
<div class="">...<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In the present situation,
anyone-can-spend outputs are used by probably
less than 0.1% of users, and most software
doesn't even allow for the possibility.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In Drivechain it's
*encouraged-by-design*!<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">- Greg</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""> <span style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal;
font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; widows:
2;" class=""><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
--</span><br style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal;
font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; widows:
2;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal;
font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; widows:
2;" class="">Please do not email me
anything that you are not comfortable
also sharing</span><span
style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal;
font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; widows:
2;" class="">�with the NSA.</span> </div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
</div>
_______________________________________________<br
class="">
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br class="">
<a
href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br
class="">
<a
href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br
class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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