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Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 15:27:00 -0700
From: Patrick Strateman <patrick.strateman@gmail.com>
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To: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is
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That was not in reply to you.

On 08/09/2015 03:09 PM, Hector Chu wrote:
> Right, you've stated a bunch of facts, but how does it answer my
> concerns of the exploding cost of the network the more interconnected
> it it?
>
> On 9 August 2015 at 23:06, Patrick Strateman via bitcoin-dev
> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>
>     I suspect there is some amount of confusion here on terms.
>
>     The hub is essentially swapping funds between payment channels.
>
>     The hub's entire business is centered around having payment
>     channels open with other hubs/users.
>
>     If the hub requires user funds to open these channels... then the
>     users have no reason to pay the hub anything in fees.
>
>     A hub that doesn't use it's own funds to open payment channels to
>     other hubs/merchants is useless.
>
>
>     On 08/09/2015 02:27 PM, Tom Harding via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>>
>>     On Aug 9, 2015 11:54 AM, "Mark Friedenbach" <mark@friedenbach.org
>>     <mailto:mark@friedenbach.org>> wrote:
>>
>>     > On the contrary the funds were advanced by the hub on the
>>     creation of the channel. There is no credit involved.
>>
>>     That's a chuckle. 
>>
>>     As I said, nothing requires the hub to advance anything, and if
>>     it does, Bob can expect to pay for it.
>>
>>     We'll see whether hubs assess a fee for depositing funds, whether
>>     the fee depends on the amount deposited, and whether it depends
>>     on the amount of time it stays there.
>>
>>     I predict "all of the above." There is a name for these kinds of
>>     fees.  Can you guess it?
>>
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>     bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>>     https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     bitcoin-dev mailing list
>     bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>     <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>     https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>


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    That was not in reply to you.<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 08/09/2015 03:09 PM, Hector Chu
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAAO2FKFBC46rFe7FV+F_H0gPiVfY8S7g09O2RNxMoZMCwywp6A@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">Right, you've stated a bunch of facts, but how does
        it answer my concerns of the exploding cost of the network the
        more interconnected it it?</div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On 9 August 2015 at 23:06, Patrick
          Strateman via bitcoin-dev <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
              moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
              target="_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> I suspect there is
              some amount of confusion here on terms.<br>
              <br>
              The hub is essentially swapping funds between payment
              channels.<br>
              <br>
              The hub's entire business is centered around having
              payment channels open with other hubs/users.<br>
              <br>
              If the hub requires user funds to open these channels...
              then the users have no reason to pay the hub anything in
              fees.<br>
              <br>
              A hub that doesn't use it's own funds to open payment
              channels to other hubs/merchants is useless.
              <div>
                <div class="h5"><br>
                  <br>
                  <div>On 08/09/2015 02:27 PM, Tom Harding via
                    bitcoin-dev wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <div>
                  <div class="h5">
                    <p dir="ltr">On Aug 9, 2015 11:54 AM, "Mark
                      Friedenbach" &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:mark@friedenbach.org"
                        target="_blank">mark@friedenbach.org</a>&gt;
                      wrote:</p>
                    <p dir="ltr">&gt; On the contrary the funds were
                      advanced by the hub on the creation of the
                      channel. There is no credit involved.<br>
                    </p>
                    <p dir="ltr">That's a chuckle.  </p>
                    <p dir="ltr">As I said, nothing requires the hub to
                      advance anything, and if it does, Bob can expect
                      to pay for it.</p>
                    <p dir="ltr">We'll see whether hubs assess a fee for
                      depositing funds, whether the fee depends on the
                      amount deposited, and whether it depends on the
                      amount of time it stays there.</p>
                    <p dir="ltr">I predict "all of the above." There is
                      a name for these kinds of fees.  Can you guess it?<br>
                    </p>
                    <br>
                    <fieldset></fieldset>
                    <br>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <span class="">
                  <pre>_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target="_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" target="_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a>
</pre>
                </span></blockquote>
              <br>
            </div>
            <br>
            _______________________________________________<br>
            bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev"
              rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
            <br>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
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    <br>
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