Delivery-date: Sun, 28 Sep 2025 17:07:58 -0700
Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of apoelstra@wpsoftware.net designates 66.183.0.127 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.183.0.127;
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2025 23:46:05 +0000
From: Andrew Poelstra <apoelstra@wpsoftware.net>
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Mempool Validation and Relay Policies
 via User-Defined Scripts]
Message-ID: <aNnIvR5Naea8pXCe@mail.wpsoftware.net>
References: <aNaUjR7QTqWvtZLa@mail.wpsoftware.net>
 <CAAANnUz3V-ciTB1+9tUz8yByhd66UpyPJTZEQFrPRMjLXZfdwQ@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512;
	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5eFL/aC/Ca8gVIfH"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <CAAANnUz3V-ciTB1+9tUz8yByhd66UpyPJTZEQFrPRMjLXZfdwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com


--5eFL/aC/Ca8gVIfH
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Disposition: inline

On Fri, Sep 26, 2025 at 03:50:09PM -0600, Chris Guida wrote:
> 
> >Yes, it is a "new purpose" introduced almost a decade ago to allow Bitcoin
> to scale without unnecessarily causing load on nodes
> 
> Yes, and my point here is that you seem to be implying that the *only*
> purpose of the mempool is to make blocks propagate faster, and if that were
> true, then I would agree with you that spam filters are harmful. But since
> the mempool predates CBR by several years, your claim cannot be true.
>

I certainly didn't mean to imply that the only purpose of the mempool
was to improve block propagation -- it is also useful for nodes to
validate transactions and cache signature validity and UTXO set updates,
something which filters are also harmful for.

<snip>

>
> Your point about node decentralization being paramount is also why core
> devs should listen to their users when they report UX difficulties. If the
> experience of running a node is bad, very few will do it. (I can assure you
> that the experience of running a useful merchant node is bad).
>

User experience is bad when every 10 minutes a block comes in and your
laptop fan spins up and your software freezes because your computer is
suddenly processing a whole block of transactions at once. It's bad when
Netflix needs to pause and re-cache every 10 minutes because your
network connection is saturated by a whole block.

Both of these things happened to me constantly before compact blocks.

<snip>

> >If the dust filter, transaction size filters, standardness limits, etc.,
> were being ignored by miners then they should be removed, yes.
> 
> Really? This should be trivial to achieve simply by launching a shitcoin
> metaprotocol on top of one of these filtered tx formats. At that point node
> DoS attacks would become more commonplace, no?
> 
> >Some of these exist for historical reasons and others for performance
> reasons, and in the latter case there might be a movement to enforce the
> old rules in consensus.
> 
> Interesting, so you're saying if someone launches a shitcoin metaprotocol
> on top of txs that are DoS vectors, then that might generate support for
> the Great Consensus Cleanup? Hmm...
>

Yes, you could try something like this, though this plan has a movie-plot
level of complexity and you are likely to fail at the first step where
you try to meme something into existence based on some obscure technical
thing :).

> >But if it came to "mempool policy vs miner policy" then it is in the
> interest of both node operators and the network's health to change the
> mempool policy.
> 
> Again, this seems like a slippery slope toward stuffing blocks full of data
> garbage rather than payments. You're basically saying miners should be in
> charge of bitcoin, and that non-mining nodes should have no mechanism by
> which to push back on miners. Am I misunderstanding?
>

Non-mining nodes push back on miners by validating transactions (and
their ability to do so is constrained by resource usage, which filtering
increases). This prevents miners from processing tranasctions that
violate the rules of the network.

But nodes have no ability to constrain miners' behavior if that behavior
is within the rules of the network -- except by coordinating to execute
a fork to change the consensus rules.

<snip> 

> That is not what the data show. First, the opreturn filter results in a 99%
> reduction in confirmed nonstandard opreturns. Second, the dust filter
> itself was implemented as a result of spam attacks, and it has been
> perfectly effective since the moment it was implemented. Again, the purpose
> of spam filtration is not to eliminate 100% of spam. The purpose is to
> raise costs on spammers. Your email spam filter likely leaks a few spam
> emails once in a while, but I guarantee your reaction is not "it doesn't
> work; let's get rid of it".
>

Your "99%" number is silly. I could produce a hundred billion
transactions that violate some policy rule, send them to my local node
which will reject them, and then claim that the policy rule was
99.9999999% effective at filtering out such transactions. My point is
that there's no meaningful way to count "transactions that exist but are
neither propagated nor in blocks".

Mempool policy makes it inconvenient for people to use transactions that
violate the mempool policy. It may discourage them from building
protocols that require such transactions. But this discouragement has no
monetary value, which means that as soon as there is any economic
interest in producing such transactions, they will be produced and they
will wind up in blocks. This is what we see -- and it's why we are
talking about eliminating the data carrier filters and not about
eliminating, say, the MINIMALIF rule on pre-segwit transactions.

<snip>

-- 
Andrew Poelstra
Director, Blockstream Research
Email: apoelstra at wpsoftware.net
Web:   https://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew

The sun is always shining in space
    -Justin Lewis-Webster

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aNnIvR5Naea8pXCe%40mail.wpsoftware.net.

--5eFL/aC/Ca8gVIfH
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEkPnKPD7Je+ki35VexYjWPOQbl8EFAmjZyLgACgkQxYjWPOQb
l8EPYQf+OhhD3M1SUJr22VZ8Qrw/ej6yQWNNpBnwMGiuU8NM2CrDPnwVDW0OyIhV
jpazYlgX592pS+rsfi1MxD3kF8g7FSDING6LOhiTi1Wg/7i9I9OqloQ7/Lr995em
8TMSLVBUoWdw9TXbQr147Uf4g6jW4Wb+fdiMiXUIVedxn5MXJ8sR803DMiRtJtHA
59KCBF/e7aDIz6PBIbYO/CAeukEoFCkphWoph/TjOxQwWS8UjdQ2NPB+qIzKoyy9
Q8RgVthKLWvTSzXASWQC/lHKk7hY5damXuptqU8hIZPq/Jxj2SXUMbHMN+wbZIjq
K6I3VVLaHOvhZAVGP0jKTci2A7mawg==
=KH4A
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--5eFL/aC/Ca8gVIfH--