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Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2024 05:08:02 +0000
To: Jimmy Song <jaejoon@gmail.com>
From: "'hashnoncemessage' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Keagan McClelland <keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com>, =?utf-8?Q?Jos=C3=A9_Edil_Guimar=C3=A3es_de_Medeiros?= <jose.edil@gmail.com>, Richard Greaser <thebitcoinbugle@gmail.com>, Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] HODL Tax Proposal
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obvious troll is obvious

thanks dick greaser

> Like Paul Sztorc's previous proposals, this one has zero negative trade o=
ffs.

okay i lolled

On Fri, Aug 2, 2024 at 03:19, Jimmy Song <[jaejoon@gmail.com](mailto:On Fri=
, Aug 2, 2024 at 03:19, Jimmy Song <<a href=3D)> wrote:

> For those that haven't figured this out yet, the name on the original pro=
posal (Dick Greaser) is the editor or the Bitcoin Bugle, a satirical "news"=
 site. He's trolling the list.
>
> On Thu, Aug 1, 2024, 8:57=E2=80=AFPM Keagan McClelland <keagan.mcclelland=
@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hypothetically miners could attempt to adopt a mining/relay policy where=
in they consider the age of the utxo being spent and factor that into the f=
eerate they consider when accepting the transaction into their block templa=
te. However this would be an opt-in mechanism and miners can choose to not =
take this into consideration when making the choice to mine the transaction=
 or not. If enough hashpower adopted this policy, you could end up with a d=
e-facto demurrage tax. This also means that you can do this without a conse=
nsus fork if there was appetite for it.
>>
>> However, I suspect there will be extreme resistance to this proposal and=
 it is unlikely that miners would intentionally leave otherwise-good fees o=
n the table simply because they want to play prisoners dilemma games where =
they lose fees to the competition.
>>
>> Keags
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 5:18=E2=80=AFPM Jos=C3=A9 Edil Guimar=C3=A3es de =
Medeiros <jose.edil@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Not sure if I should consider this a joke after the president of bitcoi=
n thing, but I just got curious about a basic technical detail and wanted t=
o stress the concept.
>>>
>>> Since the value "tokens" in Bitcoin are the utxos, outputs from transac=
tions that have not been spent in another transaction, and since the sole p=
urpose of the utxos are to atomically serve as input to a subsequent transa=
ction, how do you proposed to "tax" them?
>>>
>>> I mean, let's say someone sent me 1 BTC to address X by building a simp=
le p2pkh transaction with the address I provided. To move that 1 BTC mean t=
o authorize it as an input to a new transaction. In principle, that can onl=
y be done by me producing a valid signature using a private key.
>>>
>>> Let's say I'm one of those infamous holders. How do you propose the tax=
 to be implemented?
>>>
>>> All the best.
>>>
>>> --
>>> E...
>>>
>>>> On 1 Aug 2024, at 18:13, Richard Greaser <thebitcoinbugle@gmail.com> w=
rote:
>>>
>>>> =EF=BB=BFHi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> It has become apparent to me that there is an issue where users of the=
 network holding their coins, are not adding value to the network.
>>>> As miners continue to get squeezed post halving, they would benefit tr=
emendously from fees being taken from individuals refusing to move their co=
ins, providing increased security to the network.
>>>>
>>>> I have written out a proposal more in depth and is attached below.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro=
ups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=
 an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit [https://groups.google.com/d/=
msgid/bitcoindev/6512db18-bd15-462e-92fd-7549b5e885e7n%40googlegroups.com](=
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/6512db18-bd15-462e-92fd-7549b5=
e885e7n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter).
>>>>
>>>> <hodltax.md>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou=
ps "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send =
an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit [https://groups.google.com/d/m=
sgid/bitcoindev/C7829BDC-1273-49C9-BE03-F00823A94C3D%40gmail.com](https://g=
roups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/C7829BDC-1273-49C9-BE03-F00823A94C3D%40=
gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter).
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a=
n email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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gid/bitcoindev/CALeFGL2ngsRd3N%2B8L7u9ZLNQB084xqcMZ04Dp3J53CEBHBxQcg%40mail=
.gmail.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CALeFGL2ngsRd3N%2B=
8L7u9ZLNQB084xqcMZ04Dp3J53CEBHBxQcg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm=
_source=3Dfooter).
>
> --
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 email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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id/bitcoindev/CAJR7vkqSLkLDv%2By8D%2BaFC4pFDbtSmfrppyd5gMqG9fK_QTu6rw%40mai=
l.gmail.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAJR7vkqSLkLDv%2B=
y8D%2BaFC4pFDbtSmfrppyd5gMqG9fK_QTu6rw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&=
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<html><head></head><body>   <div dir=3D"auto">obvious troll is obvious&nbsp=
;</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">thanks dick greaser&nb=
sp;</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">&gt; Like Paul Sztor=
c's previous proposals, this one has zero negative trade offs.&nbsp;</div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">okay i lolled&nbsp;</div> <div=
><br></div><div><br></div>On Fri, Aug 2, 2024 at 03:19, Jimmy Song &lt;<a c=
lass=3D"" href=3D"mailto:On Fri, Aug 2, 2024 at 03:19, Jimmy Song <<a href=
=3D">jaejoon@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"pro=
tonmail_quote">  <p dir=3D"ltr">For those that haven't figured this out yet=
, the name on the original proposal (Dick Greaser) is the editor or the Bit=
coin Bugle, a satirical "news" site. He's trolling the list.</p>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Thu=
, Aug 1, 2024, 8:57=E2=80=AFPM Keagan McClelland &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keag=
an.mcclelland@gmail.com">keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></di=
v><blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hypothetically miners cou=
ld attempt to adopt a mining/relay policy wherein they consider the age of =
the utxo being spent and factor that into the feerate they consider when ac=
cepting the transaction into their block template. However this would be an=
 opt-in mechanism and miners can choose to not take this into consideration=
 when making the choice to mine the transaction or not. If enough hashpower=
 adopted this policy, you could end up with a de-facto demurrage tax. This =
also means that you can do this without a consensus fork if there was appet=
ite for it.<div><br></div><div>However, I suspect there will be extreme res=
istance to this proposal and it is unlikely that miners would intentionally=
 leave otherwise-good fees on the table simply because they want to play pr=
isoners dilemma games where they lose fees to the competition.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Keags</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"=
gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 5:18=E2=80=AFPM Jos=C3=A9 Ed=
il Guimar=C3=A3es de Medeiros &lt;<a rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" h=
ref=3D"mailto:jose.edil@gmail.com">jose.edil@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></=
div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb=
(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto">Not=
 sure if I should consider this a joke after the president of bitcoin thing=
, but I just got curious about a basic technical detail and wanted to stres=
s the concept. <div><br></div><div>Since the value "tokens" in Bitcoin are =
the utxos, outputs from transactions that have not been spent in another tr=
ansaction, and since the sole purpose of the utxos are to atomically serve =
as input to a subsequent transaction, how do you proposed to "tax" them?</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>I mean, let's say someone sent me 1 BTC to address X=
 by building a simple p2pkh transaction with the address I provided. To mov=
e that 1 BTC mean to authorize it as an input to a new transaction. In prin=
ciple, that can only be done by me producing a valid signature using a priv=
ate key.</div><div><br></div><div>Let's say I'm one of those infamous holde=
rs. How do you propose the tax to be implemented?</div><div><br></div><div>=
All the best. <br id=3D"m_7527663708373658711m_-8171199284076287391lineBrea=
kAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir=3D"ltr">--<div>E...</div></div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 1 Aug 2024, at 18:13, Richard Gre=
aser &lt;<a rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:thebitcoinb=
ugle@gmail.com">thebitcoinbugle@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquot=
e></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BFHi everyone, <d=
iv><br></div><div>It has become apparent to me that there is an issue where=
 users of the network holding their coins, are not adding value to the netw=
ork. <br><br></div><div>As miners continue to get squeezed post halving, th=
ey would benefit tremendously from fees being taken from individuals refusi=
ng to move their coins, providing increased security to the network. <br><b=
r>I have written out a proposal more in depth and is attached below. </div>

<p></p>

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r>
To view this discussion on the web visit <a rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank" href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/6512db18-bd15-46=
2e-92fd-7549b5e885e7n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=
=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/6512db18-bd15-462e-=
92fd-7549b5e885e7n%40googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
<div>&lt;hodltax.md&gt;</div></div></blockquote></div></div>

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23A94C3D%40gmail.com</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div>

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L2ngsRd3N%2B8L7u9ZLNQB084xqcMZ04Dp3J53CEBHBxQcg%40mail.gmail.com</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div>

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</blockquote></body></html>

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