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From: Chris Guida <chrisguida@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2025 15:02:04 -0600
Message-ID: <CAAANnUx=Wrmpm4coJOE6EPaO6sSx3OtTGcKyONn5VHXPhJLnbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Mempool Validation and Relay Policies
 via User-Defined Scripts
To: Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com>
Cc: Aiden McClelland <me@drbonez.dev>, 
	Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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Hi Greg -

Yes, I imagine my emails would get filtered from this list if I were to
post my honest, unfiltered reaction to your prior statements on this
thread. Such things seem much better suited for twitter than the bitcoindev
ML.

No, I am not being insincere; I genuinely want to know if I'm
misunderstanding your point of view, though this current reply is not
helping clarify things.

We can take this to twitter if that is more appropriate; I did not know you
were active there. I am happy to delete/retract my posts on twitter if I
have misrepresented your position.

Kind regards,

--Chris Guida

On Thu, Sep 25, 2025 at 2:47=E2=80=AFPM Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com> w=
rote:

> I'm a little confused by the tone of this reply while
> simultaneously you're on twitter calling me unhinged and retweeting bizar=
re
> insults about my posting.   Pardon the bluntness, but I suspect your
> interactions here are flatly insincere.
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 25, 2025 at 5:52=E2=80=AFPM Chris Guida <chrisguida@gmail.com=
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Greg -
>>
>> I think it's worth pointing out that "just update configs instead of
>> having to update software" is exactly what this BIP is proposing, and it
>> takes this idea a step further by giving users the ability to update the=
ir
>> filter software without having to update their bitcoin node software.
>>
>> For miners wanting to add customizations, a modular system like the one
>> in the BIP proposal is clearly a better experience than having to edit
>> hardcoded filters in bitcoind.
>>
>> You seem to be arguing that miners should be able to change their local
>> policies but that non-mining nodes should have to update their policies =
to
>> match what miners are using, is that correct?
>>
>> I don't see a problem with letting users relay (or refuse to relay)
>> whatever transactions they like. If a transaction format is not commonly
>> filtered, it will most likely get confirmed. Conversely, if a supermajor=
ity
>> of nodes filters it, it will probably not be confirmed. I very much doub=
t
>> that a supermajority of nodes would agree to filter something harmless. =
But
>> even if they do, there is always direct miner submission (additional wor=
k
>> is required to support small miners), so censorship is very unlikely.
>>
>> As for your comments on "distributed authoritarianism"... it just seems
>> like you're saying "everyone might agree to do something core devs don't
>> want them to do, so we can't allow that". But perhaps I misunderstood?
>>
>> Anyway, forcing users to relay transactions they consider abusive if the=
y
>> want to relay any transactions at all does not seem in keeping with
>> bitcoin's ethos, not to mention that it obviously would never work.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> --Chris Guida
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 4:50=E2=80=AFPM Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com=
> wrote:
>>
>>> So that when the "consistent state" changes as a result of some issue
>>> you can update configs instead of having to update software-- which has
>>> considerable more costs and risks, especially if you're carrying local
>>> customizations as many miners do.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 8:47=E2=80=AFPM Aiden McClelland <me@drbonez.de=
v> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If mempool consistency across the network is all that is important, wh=
y
>>>> allow any configuration of mempool relay policies at all?
>>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, September 24, 2025 at 12:47:28=E2=80=AFPM UTC-6 Greg Max=
well
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This appears to substantially misunderstands the purpose of the
>>>>> mempool broadly in the network-- it's purpose is to model what will g=
et
>>>>> mined.  If you're not doing that you might as well set blocks only.
>>>>> Significant discrepancies are harmful to the system and promote
>>>>> centralization and fail to achieve a useful purpose in any case.  Wha=
t
>>>>> marginal benefits might be provided do not justify building and deplo=
ying
>>>>> the technological infrastructure for massive censorship.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you think this is important, I advise you to select another
>>>>> cryptocurrency which is compatible with such authoritarian leanings. =
 --
>>>>> though I am unsure if any exist since it is such a transparently poin=
tless
>>>>> direction.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 6:30=E2=80=AFPM Aiden McClelland <m...@drbone=
z.dev>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd like to share for discussion a draft BIP to allow for a modular
>>>>>> mempool/relay policy: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1985
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it could potentially reduce conflict within the community
>>>>>> around relay policy, as an alternative to running lots of different =
node
>>>>>> implementations/forks when there are disagreements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am working on a reference implementation using Bellard's QuickJS,
>>>>>> but it has been almost a decade since I've written C++, so it's slow=
 going
>>>>>> and I'm sure doesn't follow best-practices. Once it's working, it ca=
n be
>>>>>> cleaned up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Aiden McClelland
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>> send an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>> To view this discussion visit
>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/cbdab6fa-93bc-44c9-80f0=
-6c68c6554f56n%40googlegroups.com
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/cbdab6fa-93bc-44c9-80f=
0-6c68c6554f56n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion visit
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/de4dae19-86f4-4d7a-a895-b=
48664babbfcn%40googlegroups.com
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/de4dae19-86f4-4d7a-a895-=
b48664babbfcn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAAS2fgRABqRe1j6xzW0uhVrDi=
QnL6x1X6ALzfsJ7w4GztWVeNA%40mail.gmail.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAAS2fgRABqRe1j6xzW0uhVrD=
iQnL6x1X6ALzfsJ7w4GztWVeNA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=
=3Dfooter>
>>> .
>>>
>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Greg -</div><div><br></div><div>Yes, I imagine my =
emails would get filtered from this list if I were to post my honest, unfil=
tered reaction to your prior statements on this thread. Such things seem mu=
ch better suited for twitter than the bitcoindev ML.<br></div><div><br></di=
v><div>No, I am not being insincere; I genuinely want to know if I&#39;m mi=
sunderstanding your point of view, though this current reply is not helping=
 clarify things.<br></div><div><br></div><div>We can take this to twitter i=
f that is more appropriate; I did not know you were active there. I am happ=
y to delete/retract my posts on twitter if I have misrepresented your posit=
ion.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><div><br></div><div>--=
Chris Guida<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_contai=
ner"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Sep 25, 2025 at 2:47=E2=
=80=AFPM Greg Maxwell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gmaxwell@gmail.com">gmaxwell@gm=
ail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I&#39;m a little confused by the tone of this =
reply while simultaneously=C2=A0you&#39;re on twitter calling me unhinged a=
nd retweeting bizarre insults about my posting.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Pardon the blun=
tness, but I suspect your interactions here are flatly insincere.</div><div=
><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_attr">On Thu, Sep 25, 2025 at 5:52=E2=80=AFPM Chris Guida &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:chrisguida@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">chrisguida@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Greg -</div><div><br></div><div>I think it&#39;s worth=
 pointing out that &quot;just update configs instead of having to update so=
ftware&quot; is exactly what this BIP is proposing, and it takes this idea =
a step further by giving users the ability to update their filter software =
without having to update their bitcoin node software.</div><div><br></div><=
div>For miners wanting to add customizations, a modular system like the one=
 in the BIP proposal is clearly a better experience than having to edit har=
dcoded filters in bitcoind.</div><div><br></div><div>You seem to be arguing=
 that miners should be able to change their local policies but that non-min=
ing nodes should have to update their policies to match what miners are usi=
ng, is that correct?</div><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t see a problem wit=
h letting users relay (or refuse to relay) whatever=20
transactions they like. If a transaction format is not commonly=20
filtered, it will most likely get confirmed. Conversely, if a=20
supermajority of nodes filters it, it will probably not be confirmed. I=20
very much doubt that a supermajority of nodes would agree to filter=20
something harmless. But even if they do, there is always direct miner=20
submission (additional work is required to support small miners), so censor=
ship is very unlikely.</div><div><br></div><div>As for your comments on &qu=
ot;distributed authoritarianism&quot;... it just seems like you&#39;re sayi=
ng &quot;everyone might agree to do something core devs don&#39;t want them=
 to do, so we can&#39;t allow that&quot;. But perhaps I misunderstood?</div=
><div><br></div><div>Anyway, forcing users to relay transactions they consi=
der abusive if they want to relay any transactions at all does not seem in =
keeping with bitcoin&#39;s ethos, not to mention that it obviously would ne=
ver work.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>--Chris Guida<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"=
ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 4:50=E2=80=AFPM Greg Maxw=
ell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gmaxwell@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gmaxwell@gm=
ail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>So that when the &quot;consistent state&quot; =
changes as a result of some issue you can update configs instead of having =
to update software-- which has considerable more costs and risks, especiall=
y if you&#39;re carrying local customizations as many miners do.</div><div>=
<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gm=
ail_attr">On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 8:47=E2=80=AFPM Aiden McClelland &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:me@drbonez.dev" target=3D"_blank">me@drbonez.dev</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">If mempool co=
nsistency across the network is all that is important, why allow any config=
uration of mempool relay policies at all?<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wednesday, September 24, 2025 at=
 12:47:28=E2=80=AFPM UTC-6 Greg Maxwell wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>This appears to subs=
tantially=C2=A0misunderstands the purpose of the mempool broadly in the net=
work-- it&#39;s purpose is to model what will get mined.=C2=A0 If you&#39;r=
e not doing that you might as well set blocks only.=C2=A0 Significant=C2=A0=
discrepancies=C2=A0are harmful to the system and promote centralization=C2=
=A0and fail to achieve a useful purpose in any case.=C2=A0 What marginal be=
nefits might be provided do not justify=C2=A0building and deploying the tec=
hnological=C2=A0infrastructure=C2=A0for massive censorship.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>If you think this is important, I advise you to select another cr=
yptocurrency which is compatible with such authoritarian=C2=A0leanings.=C2=
=A0 -- though I am unsure if any exist since it is such a transparently poi=
ntless direction.</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On W=
ed, Sep 24, 2025 at 6:30=E2=80=AFPM Aiden McClelland &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow=
">m...@drbonez.dev</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Hi all,</div><div><=
br></div><div>I&#39;d like to share for discussion a draft BIP to allow for=
 a modular mempool/relay policy: <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bips=
/pull/1985" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitcoin/b=
ips/pull/1985</a><br><br></div><div>I think it could potentially reduce con=
flict within the community around relay policy, as an alternative to runnin=
g lots of different node implementations/forks when there are disagreements=
.</div><div><br></div><div>I am working on a reference implementation using=
 Bellard&#39;s QuickJS, but it has been almost a decade since I&#39;ve writ=
ten C++, so it&#39;s slow going and I&#39;m sure doesn&#39;t follow best-pr=
actices. Once it&#39;s working, it can be cleaned up.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Thanks,</div><div>Aiden McClelland<br></div>

<p></p></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

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</blockquote></div>
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