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From: Anton Ragin <anton@etc-group.com>
Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 14:53:24 +0100
Message-ID: <CAPyV_jAOwQN+Xx4+b7-Oa5jz1C6uZMrEFqg8J=AUm2=P3UCh6Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: befreeandopen <befreeandopen@protonmail.com>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e39ad005c286ebf9"
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Force to do nothing for first 9 minutes
 to save 90% of mining energy
Precedence: list

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Hello, list

>Hello centralisation. Might as well just have someone sign miner keys, and
get
>rid of PoW entirely...
>No, it is not centralization -

No, it is not centralization, as:

(a) different miners could use different standards / certifications for
'green' status, there are many already;


>> That does not refute the claim at all. Just because you can choose from
multiple centralized authorities, which are well known and can collude, it
does not mean it is decentralized by any reasonable definition of the term.

(b) it does not affect stability of the network in a material way, rather
creates small (12.5% of revenue max) incentive to move to green sources of
energy (or buy carbon credits) and get certified - miners who would choose
to run dirty energy will still be able to do so.
and


>> Who is to issue these credits? A centralized entity I guess ... There is
no place for such in Bitcoin.

If I am to concede on the point that *voluntarily* green-status miner
certification is 'centralization', can you please explain *in detail* why
aren't 'bitcoin.org' and GitHub repo similar examples of 'centralization'?
You make a correct point that bitcoin.org and the GitHub repo are not
'official' things of Bitcoin network, however nowhere in my proposals on
green miner certification I was suggesting to introduce an 'official'
certificate for such a thing. May be I mis-formulated my ideas, in that
case I apologize:

The only thing which I suggested was to introduce an option to have some
transactions encrypted in the mempool to allow Bitcoin users some control
over who mines their transaction - full stop. Users could then decide how
to use this functionality themselves, and such functionality could have
uses way beyond 'green miners' - for example, some users might prefer to
send their transactions *directly to trusted miners* to prevent certain
quantum computer enabled attacks (e.g. when there is a window of
opportunity to steal coins if you have fast QC when you spend even from
p2phk address). Another example - if users are given some flexibility whom
to send the transactions, they might actually want to steer them away from
huge mining pools such as Antpool to support small independent miners, smth
of this sort - which actually would boost diversity in the network.

You may or may not agree that climate change is real, or may or may not
agree that Bitcoin energy consumption is a problem - I respectfully submit
it is not the right forum to find truth on these topics. We are discussing
ideas which *might *make Bitcoin a better solution for users who care about
certain things, *without *making it worse for somebody else (like you, for
example - who don't like centralization in any form).

>> (c) nothing is being proposed beyond what is already possible - Antpool
can go green today, and solicit users to send them signed transactions
directly instead of adding them to a public mempool, under the pretext that
it would make the transfer 'greener'.

>> And if there was an economic advantage in doing so, miners would quite
likely already implement that. Yet, somehow, they are not doing that.

Arguments of the sort 'if something could be done or should have been done
- it would be done already' are flawed, in my opinion, as following the
same logic nothing (including Bitcoin itself) should have been done ever.
As a matter of fact, we are working on a green miner initiative with
certain miners, having a call with Hut8 in 20 minutes myself - and I know
that we are not the only ones. Green crypto initiatives are actually
widespread, and the solutions will be popping up soon.

>>  Please stop with the carbon credit nonsense. There is likely no such
thing to exist on a free market and no one is interested in these state
regulations.

Please read this Wikipedia Article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_offset

"There are two types of markets for carbon offsets, compliance and
*voluntary*" [emphasis added].

Voluntary carbon offset markets are actually growing really fast.

>> Just because a big company is controlled by people who do not understand
Bitcoin, it does not make the issue valid. There are no such environmental
concerns once you understand how Bitcoin and free market work. Don't help
to spread the FUD.

I respectfully submit that people who know how to launch rockets to the sky
and beam high-speed internet from the satellites to every place on earth
are at least capable of understanding how Bitcoin works. There is even an
english expression which reads 'it is not a rocket science' which I think
fits especially nicely in this particular case :)

>>  Once people stop spreading FUD, the price will likely skyrocket. Start
with yourself please.

I guess you misinterpret my intentions, I think it doesn't matter what
Bitcoin price is - my personal interest is the widest possible adoption of
blockchain as a peer-to-peer way to transfer value between consenting
individuals free from government control or intervention. Environmental
concerns are real and at least some parts of the community are clearly
interested to at least discuss this matter (e.g. I am not the one who
started this thread).

Please don't be dismissive, it is an open forum and everybody is entitled
to his/her/its own opinion.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello, list</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>&gt;Hello centralisation. Might as wel=
l just have someone sign miner keys, and get<br></div><div>&gt;rid of PoW e=
ntirely...<br></div></div><div>&gt;No, it is not centralization -=C2=A0<br>=
</div><div><br></div><div>No, it is not centralization, as:<br></div><div><=
br></div><div>(a) different miners could use different standards / certific=
ations for &#39;green&#39; status, there are many already;<br></div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>&gt;&gt; That does not refute the claim at =
all. Just because you can choose from multiple centralized authorities, whi=
ch are well known and can collude, it does not mean it is decentralized by =
any reasonable definition of the term.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>(b)
 it does not affect stability of the network in a material way, rather
creates small (12.5% of revenue max) incentive to move to green sources
of energy (or buy carbon credits) and get certified - miners who would
choose to run dirty energy will still be able to do so.<br></div><div><div>=
and<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>&gt;&gt; Who is t=
o issue these credits? A centralized entity I guess ... There is no place f=
or such in Bitcoin.</div></div><div><br></div><div>If I am to concede on th=
e point that <u>voluntarily</u> green-status miner certification is &#39;ce=
ntralization&#39;, can you please explain <i>in detail</i>=C2=A0why aren=
9;t &#39;<a href=3D"http://bitcoin.org">bitcoin.org</a>&#39; and GitHub rep=
o similar examples of &#39;centralization&#39;? You make a correct point th=
at <a href=3D"http://bitcoin.org">bitcoin.org</a> and the GitHub repo are n=
ot &#39;official&#39; things of Bitcoin network, however nowhere in my prop=
osals on green miner certification I was suggesting to introduce an &#39;of=
ficial&#39; certificate for such a thing. May be I mis-formulated my ideas,=
 in that case I apologize:</div><div><br></div><div>The only thing which I =
suggested was to introduce an option to have some transactions encrypted in=
 the mempool to allow Bitcoin users some control over who mines their trans=
action - full stop. Users could then decide how to use this functionality t=
hemselves, and such functionality could have uses way beyond &#39;green min=
ers&#39; - for example, some users might prefer to send their transactions =
<i>directly to trusted miners</i> to prevent certain quantum computer enabl=
ed attacks (e.g. when there is a window of opportunity to steal coins if yo=
u have fast QC when you spend even from p2phk address). Another example - i=
f users are given some flexibility whom to send the transactions, they migh=
t actually want to steer them away from huge mining pools such as Antpool t=
o support small independent miners, smth of this sort - which actually woul=
d boost diversity in the network.</div><div><br></div><div>You may or may n=
ot agree that climate change is real, or may or may not agree that Bitcoin =
energy consumption is a problem - I respectfully submit it is not the right=
 forum to find truth on these topics. We are discussing ideas which <i>migh=
t </i>make Bitcoin a better solution for users who care about certain thing=
s, <i>without </i>making it worse for somebody else (like you, for example =
- who don&#39;t like centralization in any form).</div><div><br></div><div>=
&gt;&gt; (c)
 nothing is being proposed beyond=C2=A0what is already possible - Antpool c=
an
 go green today, and solicit users to send them signed transactions
directly instead of adding them to a public mempool, under the pretext
that it would make the transfer &#39;greener&#39;.</div><div><br></div><div=
>&gt;&gt; And if there was an economic advantage in doing so, miners would =
quite likely already implement that. Yet, somehow, they are not doing that.=
</div><div><br></div><div>Arguments of the sort &#39;if something could be =
done or should have been done - it would be done already&#39; are flawed, i=
n my opinion, as following the same logic nothing (including Bitcoin itself=
) should have been done ever. As a matter of fact, we are working on a gree=
n miner initiative with certain miners, having a call with Hut8 in 20 minut=
es=C2=A0myself - and I know that we are not the only ones. Green crypto ini=
tiatives are actually widespread, and the solutions will be popping up soon=
.</div><div><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0

Please stop with the carbon credit nonsense. There is likely no such thing =
to exist on a free market and no one is interested in these state regulatio=
ns.

</div><div><br></div><div>Please read this Wikipedia Article:=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_offset">https://en.wikipedia.org/w=
iki/Carbon_offset</a></div><div><br></div><div>&quot;<span style=3D"color:r=
gb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">There are two types of =
markets for carbon offsets, compliance and <u>voluntary</u>&quot; [emphasis=
 added].</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sa=
ns-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(32,=
33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Voluntary carbon offset marke=
ts are actually growing really fast.</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div>=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">&=
gt;&gt;=C2=A0</span>Just because a big company is controlled by people who =
do not understand Bitcoin, it does not make the issue valid. There are no s=
uch environmental concerns once you understand how Bitcoin and free market =
work. Don&#39;t help to spread the FUD.</div><div><br></div><div>I respectf=
ully submit that people who know how to launch rockets to the sky and beam =
high-speed internet from the satellites to every place on earth are at leas=
t capable of understanding how Bitcoin works. There is even an english expr=
ession which reads &#39;it is not a rocket science&#39; which I think fits =
especially nicely in this particular case :)</div><div><br></div><div>&gt;&=
gt;=C2=A0

Once people stop spreading FUD, the price will likely skyrocket. Start with=
 yourself please.

</div><div><br></div><div>I guess you misinterpret my intentions, I think i=
t doesn&#39;t matter what Bitcoin price is - my personal interest is the wi=
dest possible adoption of blockchain as a peer-to-peer way to transfer valu=
e between consenting individuals free from government control or interventi=
on. Environmental concerns are real and at least some parts of the communit=
y are clearly interested to at least discuss this matter (e.g. I am not the=
 one who started this thread).</div><div><br></div><div>Please don&#39;t be=
 dismissive, it is an open forum and everybody is entitled to his/her/its o=
wn opinion.=C2=A0</div></div></div>

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