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From: Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2025 20:46:51 +0000
Message-ID: <CAAS2fgQ8aY5ejB2e+mywnFcTccXmoE=9WOFcxqA1XEsgJVKEiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Mempool Validation and Relay Policies
 via User-Defined Scripts
To: Chris Guida <chrisguida@gmail.com>
Cc: Aiden McClelland <me@drbonez.dev>, 
	Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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I'm a little confused by the tone of this reply while simultaneously you're
on twitter calling me unhinged and retweeting bizarre insults about my
posting.   Pardon the bluntness, but I suspect your interactions here are
flatly insincere.


On Thu, Sep 25, 2025 at 5:52=E2=80=AFPM Chris Guida <chrisguida@gmail.com> =
wrote:

> Hi Greg -
>
> I think it's worth pointing out that "just update configs instead of
> having to update software" is exactly what this BIP is proposing, and it
> takes this idea a step further by giving users the ability to update thei=
r
> filter software without having to update their bitcoin node software.
>
> For miners wanting to add customizations, a modular system like the one i=
n
> the BIP proposal is clearly a better experience than having to edit
> hardcoded filters in bitcoind.
>
> You seem to be arguing that miners should be able to change their local
> policies but that non-mining nodes should have to update their policies t=
o
> match what miners are using, is that correct?
>
> I don't see a problem with letting users relay (or refuse to relay)
> whatever transactions they like. If a transaction format is not commonly
> filtered, it will most likely get confirmed. Conversely, if a supermajori=
ty
> of nodes filters it, it will probably not be confirmed. I very much doubt
> that a supermajority of nodes would agree to filter something harmless. B=
ut
> even if they do, there is always direct miner submission (additional work
> is required to support small miners), so censorship is very unlikely.
>
> As for your comments on "distributed authoritarianism"... it just seems
> like you're saying "everyone might agree to do something core devs don't
> want them to do, so we can't allow that". But perhaps I misunderstood?
>
> Anyway, forcing users to relay transactions they consider abusive if they
> want to relay any transactions at all does not seem in keeping with
> bitcoin's ethos, not to mention that it obviously would never work.
>
> Best regards,
>
> --Chris Guida
>
> On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 4:50=E2=80=AFPM Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
>
>> So that when the "consistent state" changes as a result of some issue yo=
u
>> can update configs instead of having to update software-- which has
>> considerable more costs and risks, especially if you're carrying local
>> customizations as many miners do.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 8:47=E2=80=AFPM Aiden McClelland <me@drbonez.dev=
> wrote:
>>
>>> If mempool consistency across the network is all that is important, why
>>> allow any configuration of mempool relay policies at all?
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, September 24, 2025 at 12:47:28=E2=80=AFPM UTC-6 Greg Maxw=
ell wrote:
>>>
>>>> This appears to substantially misunderstands the purpose of the mempoo=
l
>>>> broadly in the network-- it's purpose is to model what will get mined.=
  If
>>>> you're not doing that you might as well set blocks only.
>>>> Significant discrepancies are harmful to the system and promote
>>>> centralization and fail to achieve a useful purpose in any case.  What
>>>> marginal benefits might be provided do not justify building and deploy=
ing
>>>> the technological infrastructure for massive censorship.
>>>>
>>>> If you think this is important, I advise you to select another
>>>> cryptocurrency which is compatible with such authoritarian leanings.  =
--
>>>> though I am unsure if any exist since it is such a transparently point=
less
>>>> direction.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 6:30=E2=80=AFPM Aiden McClelland <m...@drbonez=
.dev>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to share for discussion a draft BIP to allow for a modular
>>>>> mempool/relay policy: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1985
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it could potentially reduce conflict within the community
>>>>> around relay policy, as an alternative to running lots of different n=
ode
>>>>> implementations/forks when there are disagreements.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am working on a reference implementation using Bellard's QuickJS,
>>>>> but it has been almost a decade since I've written C++, so it's slow =
going
>>>>> and I'm sure doesn't follow best-practices. Once it's working, it can=
 be
>>>>> cleaned up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Aiden McClelland
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen=
d
>>>>> an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>> To view this discussion visit
>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/cbdab6fa-93bc-44c9-80f0-=
6c68c6554f56n%40googlegroups.com
>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/cbdab6fa-93bc-44c9-80f0=
-6c68c6554f56n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>> --
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>>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/de4dae19-86f4-4d7a-a895-b4=
8664babbfcn%40googlegroups.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/de4dae19-86f4-4d7a-a895-b=
48664babbfcn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
>>> .
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s
>> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a=
n
>> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAAS2fgRABqRe1j6xzW0uhVrDiQ=
nL6x1X6ALzfsJ7w4GztWVeNA%40mail.gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAAS2fgRABqRe1j6xzW0uhVrDi=
QnL6x1X6ALzfsJ7w4GztWVeNA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3D=
footer>
>> .
>>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I&#39;m a little confused by the tone of this reply w=
hile simultaneously=C2=A0you&#39;re on twitter calling me unhinged and retw=
eeting bizarre insults about my posting.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Pardon the bluntness, =
but I suspect your interactions here are flatly insincere.</div><div><br></=
div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"=
ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Sep 25, 2025 at 5:52=E2=80=AFPM Chris Gui=
da &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chrisguida@gmail.com">chrisguida@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Greg -</div><div><br></div><div>I think it&#39;s worth poi=
nting out that &quot;just update configs instead of having to update softwa=
re&quot; is exactly what this BIP is proposing, and it takes this idea a st=
ep further by giving users the ability to update their filter software with=
out having to update their bitcoin node software.</div><div><br></div><div>=
For miners wanting to add customizations, a modular system like the one in =
the BIP proposal is clearly a better experience than having to edit hardcod=
ed filters in bitcoind.</div><div><br></div><div>You seem to be arguing tha=
t miners should be able to change their local policies but that non-mining =
nodes should have to update their policies to match what miners are using, =
is that correct?</div><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t see a problem with le=
tting users relay (or refuse to relay) whatever=20
transactions they like. If a transaction format is not commonly=20
filtered, it will most likely get confirmed. Conversely, if a=20
supermajority of nodes filters it, it will probably not be confirmed. I=20
very much doubt that a supermajority of nodes would agree to filter=20
something harmless. But even if they do, there is always direct miner=20
submission (additional work is required to support small miners), so censor=
ship is very unlikely.</div><div><br></div><div>As for your comments on &qu=
ot;distributed authoritarianism&quot;... it just seems like you&#39;re sayi=
ng &quot;everyone might agree to do something core devs don&#39;t want them=
 to do, so we can&#39;t allow that&quot;. But perhaps I misunderstood?</div=
><div><br></div><div>Anyway, forcing users to relay transactions they consi=
der abusive if they want to relay any transactions at all does not seem in =
keeping with bitcoin&#39;s ethos, not to mention that it obviously would ne=
ver work.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>--Chris Guida<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"=
ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 4:50=E2=80=AFPM Greg Maxw=
ell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gmaxwell@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gmaxwell@gm=
ail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>So that when the &quot;consistent state&quot; =
changes as a result of some issue you can update configs instead of having =
to update software-- which has considerable more costs and risks, especiall=
y if you&#39;re carrying local customizations as many miners do.</div><div>=
<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gm=
ail_attr">On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 8:47=E2=80=AFPM Aiden McClelland &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:me@drbonez.dev" target=3D"_blank">me@drbonez.dev</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">If mempool co=
nsistency across the network is all that is important, why allow any config=
uration of mempool relay policies at all?<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wednesday, September 24, 2025 at=
 12:47:28=E2=80=AFPM UTC-6 Greg Maxwell wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>This appears to subs=
tantially=C2=A0misunderstands the purpose of the mempool broadly in the net=
work-- it&#39;s purpose is to model what will get mined.=C2=A0 If you&#39;r=
e not doing that you might as well set blocks only.=C2=A0 Significant=C2=A0=
discrepancies=C2=A0are harmful to the system and promote centralization=C2=
=A0and fail to achieve a useful purpose in any case.=C2=A0 What marginal be=
nefits might be provided do not justify=C2=A0building and deploying the tec=
hnological=C2=A0infrastructure=C2=A0for massive censorship.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>If you think this is important, I advise you to select another cr=
yptocurrency which is compatible with such authoritarian=C2=A0leanings.=C2=
=A0 -- though I am unsure if any exist since it is such a transparently poi=
ntless direction.</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On W=
ed, Sep 24, 2025 at 6:30=E2=80=AFPM Aiden McClelland &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow=
">m...@drbonez.dev</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Hi all,</div><div><=
br></div><div>I&#39;d like to share for discussion a draft BIP to allow for=
 a modular mempool/relay policy: <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bips=
/pull/1985" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitcoin/b=
ips/pull/1985</a><br><br></div><div>I think it could potentially reduce con=
flict within the community around relay policy, as an alternative to runnin=
g lots of different node implementations/forks when there are disagreements=
.</div><div><br></div><div>I am working on a reference implementation using=
 Bellard&#39;s QuickJS, but it has been almost a decade since I&#39;ve writ=
ten C++, so it&#39;s slow going and I&#39;m sure doesn&#39;t follow best-pr=
actices. Once it&#39;s working, it can be cleaned up.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Thanks,</div><div>Aiden McClelland<br></div>

<p></p></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

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</blockquote></div>
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