Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 17:00:02 -0500
From: Troy Benjegerdes <hozer@hozed.org>
To: Ricardo Filipe <ricardojdfilipe@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20140325220002.GZ3180@nl.grid.coop>
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	<20140322190825.GB6047@savin> <532DE7E6.4050304@monetize.io>
	<20140325122851.GA9818@savin>
	<CABsx9T149f9of9+sYMFazAxtRi=ZJrpA1B41buERD3+j7NGKmg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20140325134918.GB7929@savin>
	<CALC81CPrzRPsMcw2CLOFhDJx8We_cUQ7OW1OnkoDvLz4Uum_Cw@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>,
	Gavin Andresen <gavin@bitcoinfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Tree-chains preliminary summary
Precedence: list

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 08:40:40PM +0000, Ricardo Filipe wrote:
> 2014-03-25 13:49 GMT+00:00 Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>:
> > On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 08:45:00AM -0400, Gavin Andresen wrote:
> >> On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 8:28 AM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Bitcoin doesn't scale. There's a lot of issues at hand here, but the
> >> > most fundemental of them is that to create a block you need to update
> >> > the state of the UTXO set, and the way Bitcoin is designed means that
> >> > updating that state requires bandwidth equal to all the transaction
> >> > volume to keep up with the changes to what set. Long story short, we get
> >> > O(n^2) scaling, which is just plain infeasible.
> >> >
> >>
> >> We have a fundamental disagreement here.
> >>
> >> If you go back and read Satoshi's original thoughts on scaling, it is clear
> >> that he imagined tens of thousands of mining nodes and hundreds of millions
> >> of lightweight SPV users.
> >
> > Yeah, about that...
> >
> > https://blockchain.info/pools
> >
> 
> On-topic:
> This argument is quite the fallacy. The only reason we have that few
> pools is because each of their miners doesn't find it feasible to mine
> "on their own". if you count the individual miners on those pools you
> will get to the scale Gavin was trying to point out.
> 
> Nevertheless i think that is just a minor disagreement, since tree
> chains help decentralization.

I think is actually a major fundamental disagreement, and opinions
tend to correlate strongly with salary considerations.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary
depends upon his not understanding it!" -- Upton Sinclair

Let us either agree to disagree, or get on with moderating this list 
so that only sensible salaried discussions can take place.