Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1YPNoc-0007iD-JW for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 22 Feb 2015 04:06:46 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of bitpay.com designates 209.85.214.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.177; envelope-from=jgarzik@bitpay.com; helo=mail-ob0-f177.google.com; Received: from mail-ob0-f177.google.com ([209.85.214.177]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1YPNoa-00023f-NA for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 22 Feb 2015 04:06:46 +0000 Received: by mail-ob0-f177.google.com with SMTP id wp18so29781687obc.8 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 2015 20:06:39 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VhV6ueXgv9Z2l7LPxQLhqFVsPuX5zl+s4GLzF9Ydjl4=; b=S0ODdia3y6jPn1xdl/TWHrk5mUTGy2EhayTEE1ahcKnzXhTRY+pb8zcOk4GHlqxJsL Cbp6T0/djU6xQZyVdoxpwUIbkTOUoI3N6puOTMTWSxF9093sddvorXM5eS5h7yeWUxit vIg7XZr7MvqwUJj3GRci19+2qPpQCIVn7BEgToVX21POgRHaHZrhP6LpRqXZqlqlrAJl S35vbnLIpsoOqSj5h+UuOI/IjmaXgT62wayArjAVPefRsrv25nNOfWr33wuTfCJXSnq8 Jiz9KAc41wdgoAdymReRAsL8I49X6isi3Bo8bp685BzDg7r3Vm00VGSJhBivtMvz1rKm nOtQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQndSozW/I4ZgpsW/V1u+camERcTL49B1HdYMHVHJMpLR3G5kMSuSZe4IfGYRjclDhJ9BHd1 X-Received: by 10.202.90.3 with SMTP id o3mr3136495oib.99.1424577999100; Sat, 21 Feb 2015 20:06:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.219.10 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Feb 2015 20:06:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20150212064719.GA6563@savin.petertodd.org> <20150215212512.GR14804@nl.grid.coop> <54E11248.6090401@gmail.com> <20150219085604.GT14804@nl.grid.coop> From: Jeff Garzik Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 23:06:18 -0500 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?Sm9yZ2UgVGltw7Nu?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.9 FUZZY_AMBIEN BODY: Attempt to obfuscate words in spam -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature -0.9 AWL AWL: Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address X-Headers-End: 1YPNoa-00023f-NA Cc: Bitcoin Development Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4 X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 04:06:46 -0000 On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n wrote= : > On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Jeff Garzik wrote: >> This isn't some theoretical exercise. Like it or not many use >> insecure 0-conf transactions for rapid payments. Deploying something >> that makes 0-conf transactions unusable would have a wide, negative >> impact on present day bitcoin payments, thus "scorched earth" > And maybe by maintaining first seen policies we're harming the system > in the long term by encouraging people to widely deploy systems based > on extremely weak assumptions. Lacking a coded, reviewed alternative, that's only a platitude. Widely used 0-conf payments are where we're at today. Simply ceasing the "maintaining [of] first seen policies" alone is simply not a realistic option. The negative impact to today's userbase would be huge. Instant payments need a security upgrade, yes. --=20 Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/