MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: marek@palatinus.cz
In-Reply-To: <CAJna-HhPm0U2odPgRji7zJqCZCWuXKT_=ayC2tsajjRX5TiCXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANEZrP2hbBVGqytmXR1rAcVama4ONnR586Se-Ch=dsxOzy2O4w@mail.gmail.com>
	<F2C8C044-EF92-4CCE-9235-28CA7FCE3526@bitsofproof.com>
	<CAJHLa0PPAsBLgsy0vgPpUp=UzeR_fWUEzFb5+xtmODEk4MGPVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJfRnm7V6fgcj=TMfa2ZTYWOKtE5aoUT1xnVtKUSyriB=6cagQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPg+sBjwf1TcK1CGKVKFzYbV-78j8t-pav7=PEgG7Yqi6-yE7A@mail.gmail.com>
	<53344FF8.7030204@gk2.sk>
	<CAPg+sBhbx5vy_hewAkFPaiXHzSMNH0qLhEYGjPmQMjR5StP-tw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJna-Hi0JnrF2_rUx0rGkdnsuCoaD01e3Gobpn+QqbL=D1Uivg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJna-HirtsGLfAhfUf9dAYEGWo6g=o=eAU187c2pdW8vDFGkPw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPg+sBg8wDH9yTUoyhRbuzVtbD8hGxya8tOnV4pMToHy3gLrzw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJna-HiN_1KQmpDJFFX6mGvM63RC0xwXxvfuorpihnzYf4=fsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJna-HgfpyHX_0AHwt1Hkj0qhD_-xOcpxsZ9KXq=7CPgwse1hA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPg+sBguSQ8dk1xXKinX+ez4BmdM3sz-huruuhD6NCTsp0kRBQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJna-Hib6umrkG0pAQzQvsyBMxOU6P675TURsVuWSU_ci9+X_A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPg+sBiwzfXDAM0FKsBPi8d6E5y_nK5FDyfPvPhOTAA+f8654Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJna-HhPm0U2odPgRji7zJqCZCWuXKT_=ayC2tsajjRX5TiCXg@mail.gmail.com>
From: slush <slush@centrum.cz>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 20:18:16 +0200
Message-ID: <CAJna-Hh2t-E=fm9V0EH+qOQTx+qsmcBemEJmML0G9PgsrJr5eg@mail.gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51d27906a36ca04f7b9c386
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] New BIP32 structure
Precedence: list

--bcaec51d27906a36ca04f7b9c386
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

For those who don't follow github pull requests regularly; there's pull
request for BIP64 defining HD wallet structure as discussed in this thread:

https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/52



On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 8:01 PM, slush <slush@centrum.cz> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 7:42 PM, Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>> Storing the seed is superior to storing the master node already
>> (whether coin specific or not), as it is smaller.
>>
>>
> ...Except that you're loosing flexibility (serialization, deserialization)
> which gives you BIP32 node.
>
> I see "bip32 seed" as some transitional, internal state from raw entropy
> to bip32 master node and this seed should not be handled by the end user in
> any form. In the oposite, well-serialized bip32 node (in xpriv, or even in
> mnemonic format) can be used very widely and have no downsides against
> using raw "bip32 seed".
>
>
>>
>> Fair enough, it would break strictly BIP32. Then again, BIP32 is a
>> *Bitcoin* improvement proposal, and not something that necessarily
>> applies to other coins (they can adopt it of course, I don't care).
>>
>>
> I also don't care too much about altcoins, but people want them so me, as
> infrastructure developer, need to think about it. And I don't see any
> reason for breaking compatibility between Bitcoin and other altcoins. I
> would be happier if there will be another sentence than "Bitcoin seed", but
> honestly, who cares. It is just some magic string for hashing the raw
> seed...
>
>
>> What I dislike is that this removes the ability of using the magic in
>> the serialization to prevent importing a chain from the wrong coin.
>>
>
> The truth is that even existing software which handle bip32 don't care
> about 'version' at all. I think that "xpub/xprv" distinction is the only
> useful feature of version, so user se if it stores public or private
> information.
>
> But using prefixes which doesn't enforce anything is even more dangerous.
> If somebody exports node "dogeblablabla", it creates false exceptations
> that there's only dogecoin stored.
>
>  Marek
>

--bcaec51d27906a36ca04f7b9c386
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">For those who don&#39;t follow github pull requests regula=
rly; there&#39;s pull request for BIP64 defining HD wallet structure as dis=
cussed in this thread:<div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/bit=
coin/bips/pull/52">https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/52</a><br>

</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 8:01 PM, slush <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:slush@centrum.cz" target=3D"_blank">slush@centrum.cz</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">On Wed, Apr 23, 2014=
 at 7:42 PM, Pieter Wuille <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pieter.w=
uille@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">pieter.wuille@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


Storing the seed is superior to storing the master node already<br>
(whether coin specific or not), as it is smaller.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>...Except that you&#39;re loosin=
g flexibility (serialization, deserialization) which gives you BIP32 node.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>I see &quot;bip32 seed&quot; as some transitional,=
 internal state from raw entropy to bip32 master node and this seed should =
not be handled by the end user in any form. In the oposite, well-serialized=
 bip32 node (in xpriv, or even in mnemonic format) can be used very widely =
and have no downsides against using raw &quot;bip32 seed&quot;.</div>

<div class=3D"">
<div>=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><br>
</div>Fair enough, it would break strictly BIP32. Then again, BIP32 is a<br=
>
*Bitcoin* improvement proposal, and not something that necessarily<br>
applies to other coins (they can adopt it of course, I don&#39;t care).<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>I also don&#39;t care too much a=
bout altcoins, but people want them so me, as infrastructure developer, nee=
d to think about it. And I don&#39;t see any reason for breaking compatibil=
ity between Bitcoin and other altcoins. I would be happier if there will be=
 another sentence than &quot;Bitcoin seed&quot;, but honestly, who cares. I=
t is just some magic string for hashing the raw seed...</div>

<div class=3D"">
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
What I dislike is that this removes the ability of using the magic in<br>
the serialization to prevent importing a chain from the wrong coin.<br></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div></div><div>The truth is that even existing software=
 which handle bip32 don&#39;t care about &#39;version&#39; at all. I think =
that &quot;xpub/xprv&quot; distinction is the only useful feature of versio=
n, so user se if it stores public or private information.</div>


<div><br></div><div>But using prefixes which doesn&#39;t enforce anything i=
s even more dangerous. If somebody exports node &quot;dogeblablabla&quot;, =
it creates false exceptations that there&#39;s only dogecoin stored.</div>


<div><br></div><div>=A0Marek</div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--bcaec51d27906a36ca04f7b9c386--