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In-Reply-To: <7b210ceabf8f5f4b58b2f6b68e6a7037@dtrt.org>
From: Nagaev Boris <bnagaev@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 00:20:37 -0300
Message-ID: <CAFC_Vt5iEvCMgUGAEgSYdd2CByR3Q3M=9tf8Uz7TK1oCPHXRvA@mail.gmail.com>
To: "David A. Harding" <dave@dtrt.org>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Lightning Safely With Feerate-Dependent
	Timelocks
Precedence: list

On Sat, Dec 30, 2023 at 12:11=E2=80=AFAM David A. Harding <dave@dtrt.org> w=
rote:
>
> On 2023-12-29 15:17, Nagaev Boris wrote:
> > Feerate-Dependent Timelocks do create incentives to accept out-of-band
> > fees to decrease in-band fees and speed up mining of transactions
> > using FDT! Miners can make a 5% discount on fees paid out-of-band and
> > many people will use it. Observed fees decrease and FDT transactions
> > mature faster. It is beneficial for both parties involved: senders of
> > transactions save 5% on fees, miners get FDT transactions mined faster
> > and get more profits (for the sake of example more than 5%).
>
> Hi Nagaev,
>
> That's an interesting idea, but I don't think that it works due to the
> free rider problem: miner Alice offers a 5% discount on fees paid out of
> band now in the hopes of collecting more than 5% in extra fees later due
> to increased urgency from users that depended on FDTs.  However,
> sometimes the person who actually collects extra fees is miner Bob who
> never offered a 5% discount.  By not offering a discount, Bob earns more
> money on average per block than Alice (all other things being equal),
> eventually forcing her to stop offering the discount or to leave the
> market.
>
> Additionally, if nearly everyone was paying discounted fees out of band,
> participants in contract protocols using FDTs would know to use
> proportionally higher FDT amounts (e.g. 5% over their actual desired
> fee), negating the benefit to miners of offering discounted fees.
>
> -Dave

Good points. It makes sense!

--=20
Best regards,
Boris Nagaev