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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2025 11:06:05 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Sanket Kanjalkar To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List References: <9FAA7EEC-BD22-491E-B21B-732AEA15F556@sprovoost.nl> <7c28f8e9-d221-4633-8b71-53b4db07fa78@schildbach.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.400.131.1.6) X-Original-Sender: sjors@sprovoost.nl X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@sprovoost.nl header.s=fm3 header.b=emncnIhP; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=q8F1xUxx; spf=pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 202.12.124.156 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sjors@sprovoost.nl; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=sprovoost.nl Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --Apple-Mail=_E933C5D2-E5C2-432A-B19D-DDB0156A92E1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Sanket, I've heard before from some lightning folks that migrating to testnet4 pres= ents a chicken-egg problem. If we were to start rotating test networks a frequency of e.g. once every t= hree years, this would become a recurring problem. Lightning seems to be a special case because it relies heavily on interoper= ability, and so any move has to be coordinated between multiple parties eac= h with their own priorities. At the same time Lightning software often needs the latest and greatest Bit= coin Core version e.g. for its new policy features. So sticking to v29 back= -ports isn't a long term viable option. I think it's worth considering for the lightning industry to organize a cus= tom signet, either a 1-of-N with keys distributed among the current players= , or unsigned proof-of-work based (more hassle, but future new players may = feel more comfortable joining). Such a network can be kept online definitel= y and its replacement can be more easily coordinated. Another advantage is = that soft fork proposals can be tested, similar to how Inquisition does tha= t on the default signet, but at a pace that matches Bolt spec work. - Sjors > Op 31 mrt 2025, om 23:15 heeft Sanket Kanjalkar he= t volgende geschreven: >=20 > Hi Sjors,=20 > Thanks for asking. Block/Cashapp relies on testnet3 and can't migrate to = testnet4 mostly because of lack of lightning LND peers. > I don't think there are any LND Lightning peers on testnet4. We (Block/Ca= shapp lightning) use LDK for Lightning, but most of our peers run LND. LND = support for testnet4 was just merged , so it=E2=80=99ll likely take time for the LND community to u= pdate node infrastructure. > We want to catch peering, business logic and lightning implementations in= teroperability issues in testnet. Even though LDK supports testnet4, switch= ing now isn=E2=80=99t viable for us until our mainnet LND peers migrate.=20 >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 4B21A2CA-2224-4BD1-AA5D-C5B2F8859E4B%40sprovoost.nl. --Apple-Mail=_E933C5D2-E5C2-432A-B19D-DDB0156A92E1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Hi Sanket,

I'v= e heard before from some lightning folks that migrating to testnet4 present= s a chicken-egg problem.

If we were to start rotat= ing test networks a frequency of e.g. once every three years, this would be= come a recurring problem.

Lightning seems to be a = special case because it relies heavily on interoperability, and so any move= has to be coordinated between multiple parties each with their own priorit= ies.

At the same time Lightning software often nee= ds the latest and greatest Bitcoin Core version e.g. for its new policy fea= tures. So sticking to v29 back-ports isn't a long term viable option.
=


I think it's worth considering for the l= ightning industry to organize a custom signet, either a 1-of-N with keys di= stributed among the current players, or unsigned proof-of-work based (more = hassle, but future new players may feel more comfortable joining). Such a n= etwork can be kept online definitely and its replacement can be more easily= coordinated. Another advantage is that soft fork proposals can be tested, = similar to how Inquisition does that on the default signet, but at a pace t= hat matches Bolt spec work.

- Sjors

=
Op 31 mrt 2025, om 23:15 hee= ft Sanket Kanjalkar <sanket1729@gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
Hi S= jors, 

Thanks for asking. Block/Cashapp relies = on testnet3 and can't migrate to testnet4 mostly because of lack of lightni= ng LND peers.
I don't think there are any LND Lightning peers on te= stnet4. We (Block/Cashapp lightning) use LDK for Lightning, but most o= f our peers run LND. LND support for testnet4 was just merged, so it=E2=80=99ll like= ly take time for the LND community to update node infrastructure.
We wan= t to catch peering, business logic and lightning implementations interopera= bility issues in testnet. Even though LDK supports testnet4, switching now = isn=E2=80=99t viable for us until our mainnet LND peers migrate. =


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