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| author | Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.com> | 2025-06-28 18:13:06 +0200 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> | 2025-06-28 09:34:52 -0700 |
| commit | f3a66bdcc920827d79e1a884b7fef2c66b1ea667 (patch) | |
| tree | 0a5313669fa298aa9a8620349b81f637c0ed9f96 | |
| parent | 0adf6bc0c3488ce0e3145b36cb95f4314ff53843 (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-master.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-master.zip | |
| -rw-r--r-- | 5d/d6672d96e93f56ff0f5cef32da82e7eb470481 | 359 |
1 files changed, 359 insertions, 0 deletions
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[2a00:1450:4864:20::529]) + by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-60c828ae04asi330213a12.2.2025.06.28.09.13.18 + for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> + (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); + Sat, 28 Jun 2025 09:13:18 -0700 (PDT) +Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of saintwenhao@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::529 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::529; +Received: by mail-ed1-x529.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-607b59b447bso1216028a12.1 + for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>; Sat, 28 Jun 2025 09:13:18 -0700 (PDT) +X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvVdkL+x9VYLLxqu6LBNcdDal4PVBcoN3MitasPW5cSqrB0dQZw8S/Z0EmhbIM + WYXWAeDI+OIyWPn8q3JeOHP5DTGGQOBkydsMqLgUUr45rQgavcu9yUkwx2oTr5jsX2NhUVv5JsL + HD5DQ0nu9wvmhNz73baqx/ylw6aag+IGAfK3f9rWM0/uE= +X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:4408:b0:607:28c9:c3c9 with SMTP id + 4fb4d7f45d1cf-60c88d951e9mr6229369a12.6.1751127197553; Sat, 28 Jun 2025 + 09:13:17 -0700 (PDT) +MIME-Version: 1.0 +References: <a86c2737-db79-4f54-9c1d-51beeb765163n@googlegroups.com> + <aEdoIvOgNNtT6L4s@mail.wpsoftware.net> <195051b7c393b9a28727e87647ac002b@dtrt.org> + <CAPfvXf+0M2PPYOAuWNt9EFWBXGspkZ3xDXKb9Tm7MW8RO3X0aA@mail.gmail.com> + <0B7CEBEE-FB2B-41CF-9347-B9C1C246B94D@sprovoost.nl> <f8220f1b-831a-4459-8dee-7fc81f4b666cn@googlegroups.com> +In-Reply-To: <f8220f1b-831a-4459-8dee-7fc81f4b666cn@googlegroups.com> +From: Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.com> +Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2025 18:13:06 +0200 +X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXz50DIc-0Djyn_CpEq1Fzt030Xg6TEROYJ2ToKJe7G7rR4nEwAtO1nSL-s +Message-ID: <CACgYNOKE4VmkrMCkSG5WahkJsbw6_9SSuGLzva1c2ER33SD6Kg@mail.gmail.com> +Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter +To: Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com> +Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009116d60638a412e9" +X-Original-Sender: saintwenhao@gmail.com +X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass + header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=OOs+oO0p; spf=pass + (google.com: domain of saintwenhao@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::529 + as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=saintwenhao@gmail.com; dmarc=pass + (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com +Precedence: list +Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com +List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com> +X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 +List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> +List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com> +List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev +List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com> +List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>, + <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe> +X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) + +--0000000000009116d60638a412e9 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +> That is why it is better -- I can activate my own thing, without +bothering you all. + +After reading BIP-300 in its current form, I think it is too complex. +Instead, much simpler constructions are already available, without any +soft-forks. What is more: they were possible since 2009, and they can be +implemented by raw Script, if needed, which makes them portable between +many altcoins, which copy-pasted Bitcoin's source code, and also between +different address types (excluding TapScript, because OP_SIZE will work +only with DER signatures). + +Example testnet transaction: +https://mempool.space/testnet4/tx/cc159432ffb7a166abeccc79800e9616a09ea9ac6= +937080c2ca37b38671970e5 +Example address: +https://mempool.space/testnet4/address/tb1qzsjnew5qcn75e4cqdsc6r9v8fjy5ensa= +ncqmv2l2n82p0q5f5tls758l9d +Example Script: OP_SIZE 60 OP_LESSTHAN OP_VERIFY +0279be667ef9dcbbac55a06295ce870b07029bfcdb2dce28d959f2815b16f81798 +OP_CHECKSIG + +Here, each coin sender can decide, which difficulty should be picked for a +given transaction output. When the size is required to be less than 60, +then that coin can be moved after grinding around 256 hashes (one byte). +Then, by lowering that value, it can be made 256 times harder, each time +this value is decremented (down to 10, because 9-byte signature is the +smallest valid one). + +So, to sum up, the ability to lock output Scripts with Proof of Work is +possible here and now, without any consensus changes. The only need for +further changes is related to Merged Mining, because the way of transaction +hashing is obviously different, than the way of hashing existing block +headers. However, that model given above should be sufficient, to deploy +some real, decentralized sidechains, on top of some existing chains, and +see, how they would be used in practice. + +czw., 12 cze 2025 o 02:02 Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com> napisa=C5=82(a)= +: + +> > What I _would_ oppose is a Python based alternative implementation and +> activation client like co-signer Paul Sztorc proposed.[3] +> +> I have done no such thing. +> +> The bip300301_enforcer is in rust [0]. Furthermore, it is not an +> "alternative" to Core -- it must connect to Bitcoin Core, via ZMQ. (But = +it +> is an "activation client" -- of a kind.) +> +> (Anyone who glanced at the github for 2 seconds, would see all of these +> things, by the way.) +> (Sjors, you may be confusing my project, with Bitcoin Core, which contain= +s +> python, including a siget-mining-script.) +> +> CUSF is clever -- because it **frees** Core from the headache and +> responsibility of soft fork activation (which I know many people here +> hardly enjoy). That is why it is better -- I can activate my own thing, +> without bothering you all. And I don't have to "compete" with CTV to be +> further ahead "in line" (or whatever). So I am free to appraise CTV +> rationally. +> +> We all know that Core is a meritocracy. And that every decision and +> sentence uttered by Core is a perfect work of divine truth -- free of all +> the flaws that have plagued every other organization throughout history. +> Lucky us! Just think, in other organizations, people sometimes allow thei= +r +> prejudice to color their judgement, occasionally jumping to conclusions +> that are incorrect -- not here though. Here it's all based on merit, baby= +. +> No need for a plan B! +> +> Cheers, +> Paul +> +> [0] https://github.com/LayerTwo-Labs/bip300301_enforcer +> +> -- +> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups +> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. +> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an +> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. +> To view this discussion visit +> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/f8220f1b-831a-4459-8dee-7fc8= +1f4b666cn%40googlegroups.com +> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/f8220f1b-831a-4459-8dee-7fc= +81f4b666cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter> +> . +> + +--=20 +You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= +Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. +To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= +mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. +To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= +CACgYNOKE4VmkrMCkSG5WahkJsbw6_9SSuGLzva1c2ER33SD6Kg%40mail.gmail.com. + +--0000000000009116d60638a412e9 +Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +<div dir=3D"ltr">> That is why it is better -- I can activate my own thi= +ng, without bothering you all.<br><br>After reading BIP-300 in its current = +form, I think it is too complex. Instead, much simpler constructions are al= +ready available, without any soft-forks. What is more: they were possible s= +ince 2009, and they can be implemented by raw Script, if needed, which make= +s them portable between many altcoins, which copy-pasted Bitcoin's sour= +ce code, and also between different address types (excluding TapScript, bec= +ause OP_SIZE will work only with DER signatures).<br><br>Example testnet tr= +ansaction: <a href=3D"https://mempool.space/testnet4/tx/cc159432ffb7a166abe= +ccc79800e9616a09ea9ac6937080c2ca37b38671970e5">https://mempool.space/testne= +t4/tx/cc159432ffb7a166abeccc79800e9616a09ea9ac6937080c2ca37b38671970e5</a><= +br>Example address: <a href=3D"https://mempool.space/testnet4/address/tb1qz= +sjnew5qcn75e4cqdsc6r9v8fjy5ensancqmv2l2n82p0q5f5tls758l9d">https://mempool.= +space/testnet4/address/tb1qzsjnew5qcn75e4cqdsc6r9v8fjy5ensancqmv2l2n82p0q5f= +5tls758l9d</a><br>Example Script: OP_SIZE 60 OP_LESSTHAN OP_VERIFY 0279be66= +7ef9dcbbac55a06295ce870b07029bfcdb2dce28d959f2815b16f81798 OP_CHECKSIG<br><= +br>Here, each coin sender can decide, which difficulty should be picked for= + a given transaction output. When the size is required to be less than 60, = +then that coin can be moved after grinding around 256 hashes (one byte). Th= +en, by lowering that value, it can be made 256 times harder, each time this= + value is decremented (down to 10, because 9-byte signature is the smallest= + valid one).<br><br>So, to sum up, the ability to lock output Scripts with = +Proof of Work is possible here and now, without any consensus changes. The = +only need for further changes is related to Merged Mining, because the way = +of transaction hashing is obviously different, than the way of hashing exis= +ting block headers. However, that model given above should be sufficient, t= +o deploy some real, decentralized sidechains, on top of some existing chain= +s, and see, how they would be used in practice.</div><br><div class=3D"gmai= +l_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">czw., = +12 cze 2025 o 02:02=C2=A0Paul Sztorc <<a href=3D"mailto:truthcoin@gmail.= +com">truthcoin@gmail.com</a>> napisa=C5=82(a):<br></div><blockquote clas= +s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r= +gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">>=20 +What I _would_ oppose is a Python based alternative implementation and=20 +activation client like co-signer Paul Sztorc proposed.[3]<br><br>I have don= +e no such thing.<br><br>The bip300301_enforcer is in rust [0]. Furthermore,= + it is not an "alternative" to Core --=C2=A0 it must connect to B= +itcoin Core, via ZMQ. (But it is an "activation client" -- of a k= +ind.)<br><br>(Anyone who glanced at the github for 2 seconds, would see all= + of these things, by the way.)<br>(Sjors, you may be confusing my project, = +with Bitcoin Core, which contains python, including a siget-mining-script.)= +<br><br> +CUSF is clever -- because it **frees** Core from the headache and responsib= +ility of soft fork activation (which I know many people here hardly enjoy).= + That is why it is better -- I can activate my own thing, without bothering= + you all. And I don't have to "compete" with CTV to be furthe= +r ahead "in line" (or whatever). So I am free to appraise CTV rat= +ionally.<br><br>We all know that Core is a meritocracy. And that every deci= +sion and sentence uttered by Core is a perfect work of divine truth -- free= + of all the flaws that have plagued every other organization throughout his= +tory. Lucky us! Just think, in other organizations, people sometimes allow = +their prejudice to color their judgement, occasionally jumping to conclusio= +ns that are incorrect -- not here though. Here it's all based on merit,= + baby. No need for a plan B!<br><br>Cheers,<br>Paul<br><br>[0] <a href=3D"h= +ttps://github.com/LayerTwo-Labs/bip300301_enforcer" target=3D"_blank">https= +://github.com/LayerTwo-Labs/bip300301_enforcer</a><br><br> + +<p></p> + +-- <br> +You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= +quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br> +To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= +mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target= +=3D"_blank">bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br> +To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= +bitcoindev/f8220f1b-831a-4459-8dee-7fc81f4b666cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_med= +ium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.googl= +e.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/f8220f1b-831a-4459-8dee-7fc81f4b666cn%40googlegrou= +ps.com</a>.<br> +</blockquote></div> + +<p></p> + +-- <br /> +You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= +quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br /> +To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= +mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoind= +ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br /> +To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= +bitcoindev/CACgYNOKE4VmkrMCkSG5WahkJsbw6_9SSuGLzva1c2ER33SD6Kg%40mail.gmail= +.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/d/ms= +gid/bitcoindev/CACgYNOKE4VmkrMCkSG5WahkJsbw6_9SSuGLzva1c2ER33SD6Kg%40mail.g= +mail.com</a>.<br /> + +--0000000000009116d60638a412e9-- + |