Re: [bitcoindev] [Proposal] 64-bit arithmetic in ScriptHEADmaster

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+In-Reply-To: <CAGL6+mHv+kn6SU9pf0Rz3FmM5OfcsmEtqGBRJ7Upb-b0MofS5A@mail.gmail.com>
+From: Christian Decker <decker.christian@gmail.com>
+Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 13:44:32 +0200
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+Message-ID: <CALxbBHW8YD-F2N9PYcAii5wXfEAPratQ6i6ke-i59pdoFczSoA@mail.gmail.com>
+Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] [Proposal] 64-bit arithmetic in Script
+To: Chris Stewart <stewart.chris1234@gmail.com>
+Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_Habov=C5=A1tiak?= <martin.habovstiak@gmail.com>, 
+	Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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+
+Hi Chris,
+
+quite an interesting proposal, but much like Martin I wonder if we
+shouldn't go beyond. For comparison Rusty's GSR comprises arbitrary
+sized integers and their associated operations, with fine-grained
+accounting of operations based on the operands size, so scripts stay
+performant and manageable.
+
+That proposal is much further along in both design and analysis, so
+maybe you could join that effort for your use-cases too?
+
+Cheers,
+Christian
+
+On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 11:06=E2=80=AFAM Chris Stewart
+<stewart.chris1234@gmail.com> wrote:
+>
+> Hi Martin
+>
+> Thanks for your interest in the topic.
+>
+> >It mentions upgrading existing opcodes, which is a hardfork, not soft fo=
+rk, at least without using a different leaf version. But it also mentions O=
+P_SUCCESSX which are different opcodes
+>
+> I view 64-bit arithmetic as a feature of a wider set of consensus changes=
+. Here is what I think the most likely deployment story is
+>
+> >This proposal could be deployed in conjunction with any of the new opcod=
+e proposals in the Motivation section using Tapscript's OP_SUCCESSx semanti=
+cs.[18]
+>
+> The opcodes mentioned in the motivation section are OP_{IN,OUT}_AMOUNT, O=
+P_VAULT, OP_CHECKCONTRACTVERIFY, OP_CTV
+>
+> As an example, this proposal could (hypothetically) be deployed in conjun=
+ction with OP_CCV. OP_CCV would take advantage of the OP_SUCCESSx semantics=
+ allowing us to redefine existing opcode's (OP_ADD,OP_SUB, etc) semantics.
+>
+> There=E2=80=99s been some discussion around deploying OP_CTV via a NOP op=
+code instead of OP_SUCCESSx. I think that would be a poor choice, as it wou=
+ldn=E2=80=99t allow new Script features to be shipped in parallel with the =
+new opcode.
+>
+> I found this StackExchange post helpful in thinking through various deplo=
+yment strategies for new Tapscript-based consensus upgrades.
+>
+> >I'd also love to see analysis why stop at 64 bits and not go all the way=
+ to 256 which could be useful for cryptography.
+>
+> In my view, there=E2=80=99s still a lot of uncertainty about cryptographi=
+c features being added to Script. There's increasing discussion around quan=
+tum computing, which raises the question of how much numerical precision we=
+ may eventually need. I'm not opposed to extending precision further=E2=80=
+=94but if we go beyond 64 bits, why stop at 256? With OP_SUCCESSx, arbitrar=
+y precision becomes a real option.
+>
+> I chose 64 bits because it covers what=E2=80=99s needed for amount locks.=
+ If someone strongly believes that 64 bits isn't enough, I=E2=80=99d welcom=
+e a competing BIP and would be happy to review and discuss it with the auth=
+or.
+>
+> >Anyway, pushing amounts on the stack would be great. Though I'm surprise=
+d you're only proposing the sum, not individual outputs. Why?
+>
+> Good question=E2=80=94and slightly out of scope for this BIP. Script does=
+n=E2=80=99t support looping, so it=E2=80=99s not straightforward to iterate=
+ over and sum all elements unless the transaction structure (i.e., number o=
+f inputs or outputs) is known in advance.
+> You can measure the number of stack elements with OP_DEPTH, but there=E2=
+=80=99s no way to write something like OP_ADD [num-stack-elements-from-OP_D=
+EPTH] to sum them all. I=E2=80=99m definitely open to hearing other approac=
+hes, though.
+>
+> -Chris
+>
+>
+>
+> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 2:32=E2=80=AFPM Martin Habov=C5=A1tiak <martin.ha=
+bovstiak@gmail.com> wrote:
+>>
+>> Hi,
+>>
+>> the proposal seems to be quite confused about how it's going to do that.=
+ It mentions upgrading existing opcodes, which is a hardfork, not soft fork=
+, at least without using a different leaf version. But it also mentions OP_=
+SUCCESSX which are different opcodes. I think it needs some analysis. (leaf=
+ version seems better intuitively)
+>>
+>> I'd also love to see analysis why stop at 64 bits and not go all the way=
+ to 256 which could be useful for cryptography.
+>>
+>> Anyway, pushing amounts on the stack would be great. Though I'm surprise=
+d you're only proposing the sum, not individual outputs. Why?
+>>
+>> Good luck!
+>>
+>> Martin
+>>
+>> D=C5=88a po 12. 5. 2025, 14:21 Chris Stewart <stewart.chris1234@gmail.co=
+m> nap=C3=ADsal(a):
+>>>
+>>> This soft fork proposal extends the range of numeric operands in Script=
+ from -2^31+1 to 2^31-1, to -2^63+1 to 2^63-1. It further expands the resul=
+t range for arithmetic operations from -2^63 to 2^63-1, to -2^127 to 2^127-=
+ 1.
+>>>
+>>> All existing opcodes[1] that interpret stack elements as numbers are up=
+graded to support 64-bit parameters.
+>>>
+>>> The existing number encoding format[2] and arithmetic semantics[3] from=
+ the original Bitcoin implementation are preserved, while enhancing the sup=
+ported precision.
+>>>
+>>> https://github.com/Christewart/bips/blob/2025-03-17-64bit-pt2/bip-XXXX.=
+mediawiki
+>>>
+>>> The purpose for this BIP is to lay the groundwork for introducing amoun=
+ts into Script. This document takes no opinion on how this is done.
+>>>
+>>> I've prototyped a few different proposals now introducing amount locks =
+into Script[0][1] and feel like this proposal is stable enough for serious =
+review.
+>>>
+>>> -Chris
+>>>
+>>> [0] - https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/op-inout-amount/549/4?u=3Dchris_stew=
+art_5
+>>>
+>>> [1] - https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/op-inout-amount/549/5?u=3Dchris_stew=
+art_5
+>>>
+>>>
+>>>
+>>> --
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+>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send =
+an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
+>>> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoin=
+dev/CAGL6%2BmH%2B9iq5_SR-Fa5zVZRoTpHasX7xoprYeJZRd5D80J1GqA%40mail.gmail.co=
+m.
+>
+> --
+> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
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+
+--=20
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+